Man Battlestations Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: markymark1970 on January 22, 2017, 11:24:27 pm
-
I have definitely seen other gamers argue in other places around the internet that simplicity is bad and complexity is good.
For those people, my go-to curse is that they have to play FASA's old INTERCEPTOR game, flow charts and all. ;-)
I once saw someone describe FSA as "Baby's first starship explosions."
If they think FSA is too simple, I wonder what they usually play. 20 volume SFB? Saganami Tac Sim? The original Babylon 5 Wars?
Ha! Dale, I was going to say the same thing. Playing full on Star Fleet Battles, with tons of optional rules, as a tween and teen, now THAT was complex. We complain that a 1000 point FSA battle takes 4+ hours. Try a cruiser and a frigate on each side in SFB...
-
That brought back nightmares. Full on SFB made me consider giving up on gaming and start getting root canals without anesthetic for a hobby. :P
Saganami was virtually incomprehensible as well and I watched the author explain it at Origins one year but, for shear brutal complexity, nothing beats the Challenger 2000 modern rules although Seekreig V is a runner up.
-
OK, now I'm thinking we need to have an "Obscure Ruleset Games Day" where we sit down and play through these old rules systems. I've never seen any of these games played, only heard about them from you guys.
Or maybe we'd need a whole weekend?
-
OK, now I'm thinking we need to have an "Obscure Ruleset Games Day" where we sit down and play through these old rules systems. I've never seen any of these games played, only heard about them from you guys.
Or maybe we'd need a whole weekend?
If you end up having such a day it would make good fodder for the Podcast ;).
-
OK, now I'm thinking we need to have an "Obscure Ruleset Games Day" where we sit down and play through these old rules systems. I've never seen any of these games played, only heard about them from you guys.
Or maybe we'd need a whole weekend?
A long day at least. I sold off my SFB stuff and other old systems ages ago. About the only thing left is B5-Call to Arms, which isn't much more complex than FSA.
I'm sure I could rustle up someone to lend SFB and Full Thrust rules, maybe even Silent Death.
Stephan has B5 Wars, but we'd spend 3 hrs just figuring out how to turn a Minbari ship.
I don't know anyone with Saganami or some of the others.
-
I've got my Federation Commander (simpler SFB, and actually quite fun) and Sky Galleons of Mars for an obscure game day.
-
I have a Sky Galleons of Mars somewhere and here in Colorado Springs there is a group still playing it (it is actually a great game). I saw a really clever setup at the Haven Anniversary.
For obscure adjacent, I could also reference General Quarters I and II. Again, great game but now 30+ years old. I could run one of those in a heartbeat.
To relearn SFB might be traumatic for many. Fed Commander can at least be played to conclusion by Humans.
-
Fed Commander can at least be played to conclusion by Humans.
Concur. That's really the only recent incarnation I've tolerated in past decade plus.
And I'm all about Sky Galleons, I miss my copy. If we play at the Haven, we can get Suzanne (formerly Stu) to play as well.
If talking old obscure and nigh unplayable, this was the FIRST Space combat game I had (though more of a 4X):
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2743/starfall
Then the FASA game came along...
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3040/star-trek-starship-tactical-combat-simulator
-
Or how about Star Force Alpha Centauri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starforce:_Alpha_Centauri). Why not go full 3D on a 2D map on your first space game?
I would love to play some Sky Galleons. I'm up in Littleton, so if you give me a few weeks notice I can dust off (20+ years of dust) my copy and head on down.
-
Sky Galleons of Mars?
I'm pretty sure Greg was talking about playing that at Genghis...
-
No, it was Space: 1889, which I think is a different but possibly similar game.
I'd be up for trying any of the above.
-
I'm about 99.9% sure Sky Galleons of Mars is the same as Space 1889. Unless you are talking about the Space 1889 hex based ground combat game, which I'm pretty sure nobody ever actually played.
-
I'm about 99.9% sure Sky Galleons of Mars is the same as Space 1889. Unless you are talking about the Space 1889 hex based ground combat game, which I'm pretty sure nobody ever actually played.
Ship-wise, same game, same world
-
OK, now I'm thinking we need to have an "Obscure Ruleset Games Day" where we sit down and play through these old rules systems. I've never seen any of these games played, only heard about them from you guys.
Or maybe we'd need a whole weekend?
A long day at least. I sold off my SFB stuff and other old systems ages ago. About the only thing left is B5-Call to Arms, which isn't much more complex than FSA.
I'm sure I could rustle up someone to lend SFB and Full Thrust rules, maybe even Silent Death.
Stephan has B5 Wars, but we'd spend 3 hrs just figuring out how to turn a Minbari ship.
I don't know anyone with Saganami or some of the others.
Still got most/all of the SFB stuff, plus Fed Commander (much easier and quicker, Todd can vouch), Full Thrust and B5 Wars/Call to Arms. Got Silent Death rulebook but have never played.
-
Starfire can be fun too. As small a battle or as big as you want.
-
Or how about Star Force Alpha Centauri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starforce:_Alpha_Centauri). Why not go full 3D on a 2D map on your first space game?
I would love to play some Sky Galleons. I'm up in Littleton, so if you give me a few weeks notice I can dust off (20+ years of dust) my copy and head on down.
Ha! I was just reading that wiki page for Star Force, and it says that the 80's band Human League (who I dig) took their name from one of the game's factions. Who knew!
-
Starfire can be fun too. As small a battle or as big as you want.
Starfire is a kick ass little space game. Totally underrated.
-
OK, so maybe after Genghis con we should have an Obscure Space Naval Games day. Sounds like several people have at least one of these systems. Would be fun to try them out!
Speaking of the con, I think I'm going to skip Space 1889 at con and sign up for Scythe on Sunday.
-
Speaking of the con, I think I'm going to skip Space 1889 at con and sign up for Scythe on Sunday.
All the good stuff is crowded on Sunday! There's both Guildball and Blood Bowl, Space 1889, Cthulhu Wars, and Mark gacy's Star Wars game which is kick-ass.
-
I still have a ton of Starfire books and rules. Never did have the miniatures but boy howdy I loved the board game.
The books are not a bad read either.
I'd be very up for a post-Ghenghis obscure day somewhere along the Front Range.
-
These all sound interesting to me! Most of them seem to fall into what Greg and I call "Class C" games on the podcast.
-
I still have a ton of Starfire books and rules. Never did have the miniatures but boy howdy I loved the board game.
The books are not a bad read either.
I'd be very up for a post-Ghenghis obscure day somewhere along the Front Range.
I really enjoy the books/background. Not sure that I've encountered another game system that went into nearly as much detail as those books did for the first two interstellar wars, the Rigellian war, Crusade and the Arachnid war in Nexus magazine (another age reference Zorper) and the updated version on the web somewhere. I have read dozens and dozens of times, never gets old.
Check these out. I never had funds to get the Starfire miniatures way back when, but one of the designers (I think) has started making ships and selling them on Shapeways. You'll recognize most of them from box and book covers that span years. Pretty cool, will eventually pick some of these up.
https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZWC4NGXZY/rigellian-rpst-tambacounda-refit?optionId=40206055
-
Oh my. I did not need to know about the Starfire miniatures. The unpainted lead/resin/plastic mountain is intimidating enough right now.
-
Oh my. I did not need to know about the Starfire miniatures. The unpainted lead/resin/plastic mountain is intimidating enough right now.
Same boat here... Uhg. I need to win Powerball so I can quit work and paint or pay someone to paint.
-
I retire in 64 days. I just need to live another 106 years to catch up on painting.
-
Someone once told me that modelers and hobbyists don't pass away until all their stuff is built and painted.
So...I think everyone on this forum is going to live forever.
-
I retire in 64 days. I just need to live another 106 years to catch up on painting.
Oooo, congrats to you! Maybe YOU can paint my miniatures, with all that free time you'll have.
-
...Arachnid war in Nexus magazine (another age reference Zorper) and the updated version on the web somewhere. ...
I think my friend still has his old Nexus magazines. I hadn't thought about those in 30 years. There was a time you had to hunt for gaming info...
-
And then there is "Little Wars", which I believe is considered the first miniatures wargame:
http://gardenwargaming.com/wargame/LW39.html
I don't think Calvary or infantry had guns they could actually fire; they could only kill each other in melee combat. However, cannons fired actual projectiles players had to aim and physical knock down pieces to kill them. This may be the only way to have a skill test for firing weapons, instead of a random mechanic (rolling dice) or a deterministic mechanic (at this distance, I inflict X damage).
-
And then there is "Little Wars", which I believe is considered the first miniatures wargame:
http://gardenwargaming.com/wargame/LW39.html
I don't think Calvary or infantry had guns they could actually fire; they could only kill each other in melee combat. However, cannons fired actual projectiles players had to aim and physical knock down pieces to kill them. This may be the only way to have a skill test for firing weapons, instead of a random mechanic (rolling dice) or a deterministic mechanic (at this distance, I inflict X damage).
I have also heard of an old system that used paper silhouettes of the ships. Players dropped pencils from a certain height onto the silhouette of their target, and when it landed, it left a mark on the paper. Where it landed was where the target was hit. I think it was mentioned in an old book I have called The Art of Wargaming. I'll have to dig that book out and figure out which system this was.
-
Both are interesting techniques, but in some ways rolling dice is simply faster while achieving nearly the same end results... except you can't gain dice-rolling skills, but you can gain pencil-dropping skills. I think the importance is this: do you want to get skillful at that?
-
Both are interesting techniques, but in some ways rolling dice is simply faster while achieving nearly the same end results... except you can't gain dice-rolling skills, but you can gain pencil-dropping skills. I think the importance is this: do you want to get skillful at that?
I think the actual question we want to ask here is "Do we want a shooting mechanic that allows more skillful/experienced players to have an advantage?" In the case of pencil-dropping, granted that skill doesn't directly relate to anything having to do with naval gunnery (or really anything else in day to day life). However, players that practice pencil dropping will probably become better at it, and this could serve as a useful analog to represent the skill of a well-trained and drilled gunnery crew. In numerous historical engagements, crew training and quality appears to have played just as much of a role in the outcome of the battle as the technical qualities of the ships involved.
One other example from miniature gaming that springs to mind is the old "guess range" mechanic that GW used in older versions of 40k, BFG, and (I believe) WHFB. This required a player to announce a range in inches or cm from the shooting vehicle/ship to the target. The announce range was then measured out, and a blast template placed there. A scatter die was rolled and the shot deviated if a hit was not rolled on the scatter die. If the template covered something, it was a hit. If not, it was a miss. This mechanic was used for indirect fire for things like artillery, mortars, and the Nova Cannon in BFG. However, the mechanic was stripped out of GW's systems in the 2000s, and replaced with a pure Scatter mechanic (place the template where you want it within the weapon's max range, roll a scatter die, and move the template XD6 inches/cm in the direction rolled). From what I've read and heard, the main reason GW gave for making this change was that it gave experienced gamers and/or those that were good at doing math in their head an advantage, since they would be able to get their shots on target faster and keep them there, and they were receiving feedback that this wasn't "fair."
-
To put it bluntly, any game relying on manual dexterity that isn't a kids game, is balls as a wargame.
Doubly so in a space game where sensors should be measuring ranges to the micrometer.
Case in point, though with a massive nostalgia pleasing aspect, is this article on the old SPACE FLEET:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/retro-gws-first-space-combat-game-space-fleet.html
-
To put it bluntly, any game relying on manual dexterity that isn't a kids game, is balls as a wargame.
Doubly so in a space game where sensors should be measuring ranges to the micrometer.
Case in point, though with a massive nostalgia pleasing aspect, is this article on the old SPACE FLEET:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/retro-gws-first-space-combat-game-space-fleet.html
Thanks for the link! That was a very interesting read. The dice-drop mechanic does sound a bit odd to me. I think I agree with you that dexterity-based mechanics are not an ideal solution for many games, if for no other reason than they can be unnecessarily exclusionary for those with disabilities. A game group I was once a part of had a member who had Parkinson's, and it was about all he could manage to roll dice.
I think this also speaks to a fact that we, as gamers, tend to assign tabletop gaming to the "intellectual challenge" bin, as opposed to the "physical challenge" bin; that is, our table top games should be a battle of wits (or failing in that, luck :P) as opposed to physical strength or coordination. Which is one of the things that makes them so appealing to an uncoordinated and out of shape person like me :D.
To take the pencil-dropping idea to a ludicrous extreme, imagine a game where shooting attacks were resolved by an arm wrestling match!
-
I prefer David Sirlin's example: cake baking. Basically, what is the skill that matters in the game? Is it the dexterity test (from dropping pencils or moving the controls to execute a special move) or is it the player's choices?
-
I'll add in two obscure naval games.
First Ram Speed my Metagaming which I believe came out in the 80's. Not the greatest game in the world, but one of the first to cover naval battles in the ancient world.
Second, is the first space naval game that I played which is Full Thrust. This game came out I believe in the 90's with rule books and a line of miniauters by Ground Zero Games. I played it quite a bit back then. There is a local person who runs Full Thrust games at San Francisco Bay area conventions, so I still get in one or two games a year. The game is fairly simple and fun. There was even rules for the Babylon 5 setting. One version of the rules included semi-Newtonian movement, which I've always felt is needed for space games.