Man Battlestations Forum
Warcradle Naval Games => Dystopian Wars => Topic started by: RuleBritannia on November 26, 2017, 07:34:31 am
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Taken from Stuart MacKaness's comment on facebook
The new narrative may well have some of the events of the original game, but the world is different, the history is different and the factions are different. The current narrative ended with the end of Spartan. The full narrative won't be there until the book is released. No point in looking for detail that isn't there at this point. We're focusing on getting a great game written and then seeing where the narrative needs to go to make sure that it reflects the game.
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Link?
I am glad there will be fluff changes but I think firestorm needs it more than DW
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I think the fluff structure got a bit creaky as the new factions/mercs were shoehorned into the base game. A fresh start seems like a good idea.
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Two DW fluff items that stand out as odd to me:
France and Prussia as allies
And China as a minor ally to japan
Given the iconography on the models, and their model range, the major powers will remain major powers
Warcradle options to grow the business will likely include raising some middle powers to major power model range (which mandates a different fluff) as well as fleshing out the middles (to have models for all three theaters: sea, land and air)
Candidates for new majors: a South American power, a Middle East power (ottomans), and China; maybe the austrio-Hungarian/Carpathian and Spain?
The black wolf and eclipse company could also be reassigned to more conventional geo-political entities?
Also interesting to see what they do with CoA.
Stray too far from existing fluff will risk alienating the current players ( who should be grateful the game is still alive)
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They are cutting the total factions down to eight so I have no idea.... More annoyed that a total reboot removes Franco's excellent quality fluff.
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Stray too far from existing fluff will risk alienating the current players ( who should be grateful the game is still alive)
Should I be grateful? To whom? That sounds a bit too consumerist and slaverish in my opinion. The game is alive not because someone bought it and maybe, someday, and I don't know when, will release something that may look like it in that direction. I, along with another couple of players from my club and another friendly club, continue to support the game as it is, not for the fluff, but for the models and mechanics. The fluff I invent for myself, as an example, is my own completely, through knowledge of history, with knowledge of the classical literature on the topic (think Jules Verne - Robur series, and Herbert Wells) with a little droplet of own imagination added - in short, I do not care what kind of fluff is created by whom, I just like the mechanics as it were, so I don't simply consume ready-made pies and pastries, I like to cook for myself the story as well. If warcradle changes a whole lot of it's mechanics (really I don't expect changes for the best when they happen, from experiences, so please excuse my pessimist tone here), then I would not worry - we still have the old game rules (and majorly thanks to Ruckdog for doing up a G-drive full of these documents) and the new things can be completely ignored. In addition, I am not sure these guys will make the rules available as free downloads... but this matter we shall see, they may, and I may be wrong....
In any case though, these rules have also seen adaptations to historical scenes, like pre-dreadnought era naval battles, and actually being my little "pet-project" of a sort, so I am in it too.
So to cut it short, the game is a relic, like most other things that have died in the past, but it life continues on as people who liked the game will support it in various means, disregarding what the wholesale system has got to say on such matters....
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The two big problems I have had with warcradle is a smothering social media presence and a sense they don't get nor want to get what DWars was. It seems rather late for both things to be resolved, but the fluff issue is one that this throws into sharp relief.
What DWars did that I really loved was go there is this weirdness of the vaults, but instead of people becoming superhuman, corrupted or externally changed by new technology, making it basically magical, Spartan merely used Sturginium to create an exaggerated Victorian nationalism. It is very human, and from Franco's writing has a sense of mass production, grinding warfare organised by professionals in defence of their nation or for the purpose of making a living. The desire to create a simpler, less grey, 'darker' narrative might be a commercially sound one, I'm no market analyst, but implies a lack of respect for the source material. The very desire to reboot right from the start and the desire to include aliens feels like Warcradle wanted a generic steampunk game to add to their stable and so gutted DWars. The stress on the very fact we should be grateful for this rather than annoyed that unlike other recent takeover of similar companies there is no just a lack of respect but a mocking of fans for enjoying a game they invested time and effort into is grating especially with the social media smothering.
Why buy the name and the materials to create an entirely new world?
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Why buy the name and the materials to create an entirely new world?
Because they aren’t?
From what I’ve read of the FB posts, they aren’t creating a “whole new world.” Instead, my understanding is that they are making tweaks and changes to what’s there, to both make things a bit more coherent and to fit their own vision of the setting. And from what I see on the FB threads, WC has never seriously put forward that DW is going to be all about aliens now (lots of jokes about that though!). In fact, I distinctly remember them stating that it’s still going to be human focused, with the same Victorian Nationalism run amok vibe the game has always had. From the talks I’ve had with Stuart, he’s expressed an interest is trying to keep the themes and feel of the setting intact, and I for one am willing to give WC the benefit of the doubt until we see more concrete info.
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Hello RuleBritannia, you know, you sound an awful lot like Danny Buck... My Warcradle issue Palantír is being serviced at the moment so I can't be sure of course... Maybe you're just members of the same secret society in Antarctica ;D
It's odd isn't it? What one person sees as active community engagement, another sees as a smothering social media presence. I guess it depends on who you are and what you are trying to say or stir up. Certainly, it isn't our intention to smother you. Mind you, it sounds like we keep bumping into each other. Maybe we just both know all the best places to chat! ;)
We are hard at work refining whole chunks of the Dystopian Wars background which will be retained in the reboot. After all, its fantastic stuff. There are a couple of parts that need to be reworked to fit into the larger setting we are developing but we'll be making a video outlining those broad changes this week (and following it up in later weeks with all sorts of background articles and pictures of some of the amazing new miniatures being developed).
There won't be magic in Dystopian Wars. Or vampires and goblins. Everything should have a scientific (or pseudo-scientific) explanation. Of course, some might see the extraterestrial or super-science of the Dystopian Age as magical and some might see the inexplicable as supernatural, but that doesn't mean that they are. Humanity is at the heart of Dystopian Wars (though don't be concerned if we talk in romanticised terms about destiny and good and evil, those are human perceptions of things not actual definitive concepts). The Dystopian world is one of shades of grey, not absolutes.
We know that for some, any change is unwelcome (or unnecessary). All I would say to those people is give the new setting a chance. We're sure there's lots to like about it (after all it will contain lots of the existing material!) and the new ideas and expanded/reworked factions will give players lots to get excited about (without having to start all new fleets for yet another small faction).
We really aren't looking to create something new for the sake of it (what would be the point?). But it was never the plan to just pick up where Spartan left off and trot out the same old stuff to the same loyal fan base. Though that would be the easiest thing to do, it is also the most limited from appealing to new players and giving the existing fans as exciting a world as they deserve to play in. This is about the long-term health of the game. So either patiently reserve judgement and get involved in the Beta test before deciding, or assume that whatever we come up with will be terrible and stick with 1.0/1.1/2.0/2.1/2.5. Either way, the choice is yours!
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Stuart,
What are the plans for firestorm whose fluff needs more work than DW?
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Firestorm’s background needs a complete overhaul, which is a much larger and complex job. We’re looking at lots of options.
Dystopian just needed some pruning and reworking in a few places.
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Stuart,
since it's a bit tricky to get info out of Britannia, I figured I'd ask you as well:
Where exactly is that facebook-whatever where you've commented on things? The official Warcradle page seems to be at least 99% about WWX, and while the forums are up and running again they also seem pretty dead. So while RB up there might be complaining about a smothering social media presence, I don't really see any at all. At least when it comes to DW and friends.
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Stuart,
since it's a bit tricky to get info out of Britannia, I figured I'd ask you as well:
Where exactly is that facebook-whatever where you've commented on things? The official Warcradle page seems to be at least 99% about WWX, and while the forums are up and running again they also seem pretty dead. So while RB up there might be complaining about a smothering social media presence, I don't really see any at all. At least when it comes to DW and friends.
Bloed, most of what we are talking about here regarding DW has been posted in the “Dystopian Wars and Legions” Facebook group. You will need a FB account, and then you will need to ask to join the group through FB and be approved by the group admin ( which is pretty much a given, Ive never known them to turn anyone away) as the group is not public.
Edit: Oh, and the reason the official DW/ FSA/US forums seem dead is because Warcradle has not enabled posting on them; they are effectively in a “read only” state ATM.
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Bloed, most of what we are talking about here regarding DW has been posted in the “Dystopian Wars and Legions” Facebook group. You will need a FB account, and then you will need to ask to join the group through FB and be approved by the group admin ( which is pretty much a given, Ive never known them to turn anyone away) as the group is not public.
Edit: Oh, and the reason the official DW/ FSA/US forums seem dead is because Warcradle has not enabled posting on them; they are effectively in a “read only” state ATM.
Ah, that explains it. Thanks for pointing both those things out!
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Firestorm’s background needs a complete overhaul, which is a much larger and complex job. We’re looking at lots of options.
Hurray!
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I'm not *too* concerned about a fluff/backstory overhaul...I was never really wedded to it anyway. I generally like the setting, but I never got too wrapped up in all the details of why things were happening.
My only concern right now is the whole trimming down to 8 factions thing, which I've heard in rumor only. (Stuart, can you confirm this?) DW has a lot of really cool-looking factions, and I'd hate to see some of them written out of the game. But I'll reserve judgment until we know for sure what's going on.
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The big announcement was made today!
https://youtu.be/2iVueg6W674
To summarize:
-The setting for DW is now branded as the Dystopian Age
- Wild West Exodous is now part of the Dystopian Age
-Dystopian Wars will be an air/naval game, and remain at 1:1200 scale
-Armored Clash is going to be the Land/air game in the Dystopian Age, and will be in 10mm scale
-Warcradle is setting things up to allow gamers to use their old DW land models as proxies for the new Armored Clash
-Bunkers, shore fortifications, and landing craft will be included in DW, to allow for beach landing scenarios.
-The prospect of doing linked campaigns with DW, AC, and a 35mm figure game was mentioned.
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Well...for my model collections, it looks like a version of my beloved FSA made it through, and a version of the Chinese Federation. Wonder what's going to become of the RoF and Australian models.
I think I like the new FSA (or I guess now the UFAS) model they showed. The gun turrets are pretty sweet (really like the blast shields), and I'm glad they seem to be keeping the paddlewheel theme. The new Chinese (or Immortal Celestial)...not sure. Minus a few of the details on the hull, the battleship they previewed looks like 85% the CF battleship and 15% the EotBS heavy battleship. Will need to see more of that line before I can form an opinion.
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So, I've read a lot of the Facebook comments over the past day, and since you fine people were what pointed me at them, I'm going to relay some of that back to you!
First of all, it will be about A YEAR until we see the new DW officially hit the shelves. This estimate is from the guy sitting on the lefthand side of the video, and should be relatively accurate. Alphas and Betas before that, if I understood right and if they decide to have them public.
Well...for my model collections, it looks like a version of my beloved FSA made it through, and a version of the Chinese Federation. Wonder what's going to become of the RoF and Australian models.
I think I like the new FSA (or I guess now the UFAS) model they showed. The gun turrets are pretty sweet (really like the blast shields), and I'm glad they seem to be keeping the paddlewheel theme. The new Chinese (or Immortal Celestial)...not sure. Minus a few of the details on the hull, the battleship they previewed looks like 85% the CF battleship and 15% the EotBS heavy battleship. Will need to see more of that line before I can form an opinion.
Union of Federated American States is a weird name. Also, the South used slaves again. I'm not sure how I feel about that. The alternate history take was interesting, but just going "slavery in America never happened" was... odd? Since Stonewall is also still kicking about with his gang of plucky guerillas, we might also see some ironclad mercenary ships of the defunct Confederate Navy (though this is purely projection on my part).
EotBS and CF are now the "Celestial Empire", which also includes Korea and up to 4 more Asian nations. You can still field exclusively CF or EotBS navies, but in fluff they'll be close allies.
Republique of France is now allied with the Spanish Sovereignty and the League of Italian States in the Latin Alliance, ruled by Napoleon (The third, I think. Or maybe steampunk Zombie Napoleon I. Who knows?)
The Russian Federation and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth are also one faction, though there is no word about what their "big" name is gonna be, and if any other factions are involved.
Covenant of Antarctica is now "Covenant of the Enlightened", Antarctic Division. There are different chapters of them across the world, the Antarctic one still headed by Sturgeon, the American branch lead by Dr. Carpathian (think Dr. Frankenstein with even less moral scruples and varied interest in more 'evil' science), the Russian one headed by the "Troika" (hey, I know about as much of them as you do), the Persian one headed by a Princess (which also kinda hints at Persia as a faction!), and maybe more unnamed charters.
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Here is my thoughts on the Warcradle announcement:
http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2017/12/03/the-dystopian-age/
So, I've read a lot of the Facebook comments over the past day, and since you fine people were what pointed me at them, I'm going to relay some of that back to you!
First of all, it will be about A YEAR until we see the new DW officially hit the shelves. This estimate is from the guy sitting on the lefthand side of the video, and should be relatively accurate. Alphas and Betas before that, if I understood right and if they decide to have them public.
Well...for my model collections, it looks like a version of my beloved FSA made it through, and a version of the Chinese Federation. Wonder what's going to become of the RoF and Australian models.
I think I like the new FSA (or I guess now the UFAS) model they showed. The gun turrets are pretty sweet (really like the blast shields), and I'm glad they seem to be keeping the paddlewheel theme. The new Chinese (or Immortal Celestial)...not sure. Minus a few of the details on the hull, the battleship they previewed looks like 85% the CF battleship and 15% the EotBS heavy battleship. Will need to see more of that line before I can form an opinion.
Union of Federated American States is a weird name. Also, the South used slaves again. I'm not sure how I feel about that. The alternate history take was interesting, but just going "slavery in America never happened" was... odd? Since Stonewall is also still kicking about with his gang of plucky guerillas, we might also see some ironclad mercenary ships of the defunct Confederate Navy (though this is purely projection on my part).
EotBS and CF are now the "Celestial Empire", which also includes Korea and up to 4 more Asian nations. You can still field exclusively CF or EotBS navies, but in fluff they'll be close allies.
Republique of France is now allied with the Spanish Sovereignty and the League of Italian States in the Latin Alliance, ruled by Napoleon (The third, I think. Or maybe steampunk Zombie Napoleon I. Who knows?)
The Russian Federation and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth are also one faction, though there is no word about what their "big" name is gonna be, and if any other factions are involved.
Covenant of Antarctica is now "Covenant of the Enlightened", Antarctic Division. There are different chapters of them across the world, the Antarctic one still headed by Sturgeon, the American branch lead by Dr. Carpathian (think Dr. Frankenstein with even less moral scruples and varied interest in more 'evil' science), the Russian one headed by the "Troika" (hey, I know about as much of them as you do), the Persian one headed by a Princess (which also kinda hints at Persia as a faction!), and maybe more unnamed charters.
Great summary! I have been collecting similar notes for another blog post on this as well.
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Just finished another blog post! This time I'm taking a closer look at all of the neat model previews that were shown last Friday.
http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2017/12/03/dystopian-age-model-previews/
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So, I've read a lot of the Facebook comments over the past day, and since you fine people were what pointed me at them, I'm going to relay some of that back to you!
First of all, it will be about A YEAR until we see the new DW officially hit the shelves. This estimate is from the guy sitting on the lefthand side of the video, and should be relatively accurate. Alphas and Betas before that, if I understood right and if they decide to have them public.
Well...for my model collections, it looks like a version of my beloved FSA made it through, and a version of the Chinese Federation. Wonder what's going to become of the RoF and Australian models.
I think I like the new FSA (or I guess now the UFAS) model they showed. The gun turrets are pretty sweet (really like the blast shields), and I'm glad they seem to be keeping the paddlewheel theme. The new Chinese (or Immortal Celestial)...not sure. Minus a few of the details on the hull, the battleship they previewed looks like 85% the CF battleship and 15% the EotBS heavy battleship. Will need to see more of that line before I can form an opinion.
Union of Federated American States is a weird name. Also, the South used slaves again. I'm not sure how I feel about that. The alternate history take was interesting, but just going "slavery in America never happened" was... odd? Since Stonewall is also still kicking about with his gang of plucky guerillas, we might also see some ironclad mercenary ships of the defunct Confederate Navy (though this is purely projection on my part).
EotBS and CF are now the "Celestial Empire", which also includes Korea and up to 4 more Asian nations. You can still field exclusively CF or EotBS navies, but in fluff they'll be close allies.
Republique of France is now allied with the Spanish Sovereignty and the League of Italian States in the Latin Alliance, ruled by Napoleon (The third, I think. Or maybe steampunk Zombie Napoleon I. Who knows?)
The Russian Federation and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth are also one faction, though there is no word about what their "big" name is gonna be, and if any other factions are involved.
Covenant of Antarctica is now "Covenant of the Enlightened", Antarctic Division. There are different chapters of them across the world, the Antarctic one still headed by Sturgeon, the American branch lead by Dr. Carpathian (think Dr. Frankenstein with even less moral scruples and varied interest in more 'evil' science), the Russian one headed by the "Troika" (hey, I know about as much of them as you do), the Persian one headed by a Princess (which also kinda hints at Persia as a faction!), and maybe more unnamed charters.
Much seems unnecessary
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Rebranding the game makes it their own thing while distancing them from what was there with SG. While it’s generally superficial, it can be a good marketing technique.
Warcradle is clearly not trying to please everyone that played DW, but that’s a good thing, because it’s impossible. They’re instead taking the stuff they liked, trashing what they didn’t, and making something new in the process. New models, new background, and most importantly, a vision for how to develop the game long term.
What they didn’t show is also telling; nothing about what really matters: gameplay. However, having tried developing new mechanics and tweaking existing ones, this process is much harder than you might think... particularly if you want to make something new and good. So wait and see what happens.
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What they didn’t show is also telling; nothing about what really matters: gameplay. However, having tried developing new mechanics and tweaking existing ones, this process is much harder than you might think... particularly if you want to make something new and good. So wait and see what happens.
The guy on the left in the video (forgot his name) did mention that it's gonna be a year until the new DW will be released. So saying anything about the rules now would be unwise, as a lot is still going to change. I suspect that's also why there's no word on Imperial Bond and the Grand Alliance yet. If I'm perfectly honest, I suspect the two will get canned. From their devblogs on Wild West Exodus, on of the big design principles of the Warcradle guys seems to be freedom of player choice, and plenty of in-faction variety. Not sure how arbitrary super-alliances would mesh with that.
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As a fluff guy this was what got me very angry, the sacrificing of the somewhat more subtle and careful Dystopian Wars original flavour alt history for a much less careful and in some cases unnecessarily grim dark fluff. The two settings aren't overly compatible and the seams are pretty obvious in the hack and slash. This comes from a definite rooting in rule of cool over pseudo history. Maybe it will sell better? But the problem with this comes from making obvious some of the darker part of Victorian colonialism and culture that DWars classic made efforts to reduce, and could be problematic going into the future. For example making all the Asian factions connected together as the Celestials homogenises some pretty varied cultures, and evokes some unfortunate stereotypes, such as the name Celestial itself that could be misread. Similarly bringing back slavery into the setting, and its virtual usage in the Enlightened's cyborg construction and linking that to the 'progress' faction of the covenant runs the risk of some dodgy atmosphere with the tension inside the United States currently. Treating Africa as a warzone too discounts both existing contemporary cultures and comes off as flippant even in the era that saw the scramble for Africa. I am probably overthinking this fluff stuff, but its that and the industry standard but rather unpleasant habit of Warcradle to produce very cheesecakey female models that runs the risk of devaluing the brand through this absorption.
As to the models, which Mann's blog had some very good renders, the 'Crown' ship looked great bar the silly turrets, and what looked like a 19th century apartment block behind the top. The 'Celestials' being dominated by the more Chinese looking vessels urks me since I grew fond of the neo-futurism of the Japanese train. I realised the American vessel had a cow catcher frontage that seems rather silly.
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Lumping together factions eliminates conflicts between factions and this is bad.
For instance there should be a three way fight for east Asia: japan vs China vs Russia vs japan
Also not sure that the lack of success with armor clash was due to lack of in scale infantry; if it was moving to 10mm would make sense.
I do like the rebranding as Dystopian Age
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Two DW fluff items that stand out as odd to me:
France and Prussia as allies
And China as a minor ally to japan
And how about Greece as part of the Ottoman/Persian/Egyptian complex? Sounds like there's a lot of Xerxes fanboys at Warcradle :)
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Stuart,
since it's a bit tricky to get info out of Britannia, I figured I'd ask you as well:
Where exactly is that facebook-whatever where you've commented on things?
If you are on Facebook, trying joining https://www.facebook.com/groups/dystopian.wars.and.legions/ All the Warcradle and Wayland Games staff are now moderators, and frequently make comments. Heck, Stuart even makes comments on my personal page and other page posts at times . . .
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I find it rather suffocating for conversation, but different strokes for different folks.
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I find it rather suffocating for conversation, but different strokes for different folks.
Suffocating? You mean you get banned for personal abuse?
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I find it rather suffocating for conversation, but different strokes for different folks.
Suffocating? You mean you get banned for personal abuse?
Given the broad definition of "Abuse" which includes "negativity" and "pessimistic attitudes", then yes, that could seem pretty suffocating. :)
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It was a fan group, and fan opinion can sometimes to be negative and pessimistic. You tend to change that opinion with renders and describing ideas not by deleting and banning. But what do I know?
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RuleBritannia,
Calling people liars and dishonest when they were doing no such thing and repeating it everywhere you could and yet your response when confronted was that it was only Stuart being abused... that isn't the sort of debate you claim it is, in fact, it is deliberately disingenuous of you. We do not mind contrary opinions, but we do expect civility and an acceptance that others might not share your opinion.
The Warcradle staff has been engaging with the community far more than any other games company I can think of. We are not going to be able to give everybody what they want. If the game goes in a direction you do not like, it isn't some personal slight against you individually. Whatever topic we raise there will be a proportion of those that like/love/dislike/hate every single decision. It is simply impossible to keep everyone happy.
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What is the missing info as to the backdrop?
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The Warcradle staff has been engaging with the community far more than any other games company I can think of. .
That's true enough - One of the studio people came onto my personal page to berate me when i shared a comment that I found rather objectionable, however I thought was a reflection of a general anti-democratic trend in society these days and so I put it up for discussion among my friends.
Comment in question? "There's no voting or going with majority opinion (game design that way lies in madness), but quality feedback is listened to and if there's some changes that can be incorporated to make a better final product we are more than happy to do so."
My objections?
1. Who defines "quality"?
2. Assuming the first part to be true, what does that say about games like, say, NetEpic or Power Projection? Rules which I believe were written by communities on such democratic lines.
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My objections?
1. Who defines "quality"?
2. Assuming the first part to be true, what does that say about games like, say, NetEpic or Power Projection? Rules which I believe were written by communities on such democratic lines.
1. Quality is in the eye of the beholder, but in this case Warcradle has the biggest say obviously. Just like me when it comes to MBS, WC is well within their rights to take or leave any feedback they receive. So far, I’ve been impressed with the level of tolerance they’ve displayed; the only folks they’ve had problems with have been those that have devolved to making personal attacks and other such nastiness that by any reasonable standard has to be regarded as unacceptable.
Remember, just because someone doesn’t implement a suggestion you’ve made doesn’t mean you’ve been ignored.
2. I don’t think it says much at all, other than the communities for those games have found a way to keep them going in the absence of normal support from a gaming company. We’re really talking apples and oranges here IMO; the examples given are of games that have essentially been abandoned by the entities that own the IP (I know that to be true for Epic, and I’m assuming it’s the case for the other one). DW is not in that category; the IP owner (WC) is fully engaged in developing the game, so it’s only natural that it’s develpoment won’t be as “democratic” as a fully fan-supported effort like Epic would be. Everything WC has said and done so far, such as taking player feedback and plans to do an open Beta phase for the rules, seems completely in line with the “best practices” I’ve seen employed by other game companies over the last few years.
Of course, and this is a point I’ve made elsewhere, WC hasn’t yet delivered on their plans; it remains to be seen how well they will execute on their plans.
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Nothing wrong with responding to quality feedback (as determined by reader thus subjective) nor correcting falsehood ( truth is objective) but there is something wrong about berating negative subjective feedback.
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The Warcradle staff has been engaging with the community far more than any other games company I can think of. .
That's true enough - One of the studio people came onto my personal page to berate me when i shared a comment that I found rather objectionable, however I thought was a reflection of a general anti-democratic trend in society these days and so I put it up for discussion among my friends.
Comment in question? "There's no voting or going with majority opinion (game design that way lies in madness), but quality feedback is listened to and if there's some changes that can be incorporated to make a better final product we are more than happy to do so."
My objections?
1. Who defines "quality"?
2. Assuming the first part to be true, what does that say about games like, say, NetEpic or Power Projection? Rules which I believe were written by communities on such democratic lines.
Just to correct you, Stuart made that comment on a post shared and made on the Dystopian Wars and Legion facebook group. That was not Stuart following you to your personal facebook page.
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Just to correct you, Stuart made that comment on a post shared and made on the Dystopian Wars and Legion facebook group. That was not Stuart following you to your personal facebook page.
Just to correct you, after Stuart made that comment, I quoted it on my Facebook personal page and he did in fact come and make further comments on my page. The link is here for those who can use it - https://www.facebook.com/david.stuckey.161?hc_ref=ARSTlugDabmEV_i9xIUjlFZ1TZs-SwUYj6Gv8zMbQo6ihp2-uY8UhqAu7abEBl__exA&fref=nf&pnref=story
For those who can't here is the transcript of the conversation -
Stuart Mackaness So the company who own and are developing the product for commercial purposes welcome public feedback but reserve the right to make the final call on whether those contributions are something they will be incorporating into that product? Outrageous! ;-)
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Me
Extend that - So the government has an election then reserves the right to ignore the result of that election? Outrageous!
Funnily enough, I was going to quote another person today on this topic, who was saying that democracy was a load of tosh as it let unqualified people assist in decision making.:) Your statement just seemed more concise than theirs :)
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· Reply · 23h · Edited
Stuart Mackaness
Stuart Mackaness There’s a world of difference between the democracy of government (or even the illusion of it to avoid civil unrest), and the design process to develop a product.
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Me
Maybe so, it is however the same mind set and one that I personally see as dangerous.
in any event, I still argue that a democratic process of discussion with players and voting on new rules does *not* automatically make a bad game. I point at both Net Epic and Power Projection as examples and stand by my argument.
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Stuart Mackaness
Stuart Mackaness I can absolutely see your point. While there’s no commercial risk and where your forum users are essentially your entire player base, having a completely open forum and giving all commentators an equal voice makes a great deal of sense.
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Ahh, sorry I didn't know about those.
But I agree with his points 100%
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Ahh, sorry I didn't know about those.
But I agree with his points 100%
I rather thought you would :) Leaving aside the idea that democracy is an invalid concept form a business viewpoint, I have to say I do agree with some of Stuart's points as well. Nevertheless, my point about what the IT crowd call "shareware" still stands, and I doubt that many of the projects created that way can't be called commercial successful.
In any event, I'm very much looking forward to see what comes forward for the DW naval side of things - As I have said before, apart from the UFSA or whatever the Steampunk Seppos are currently called, so far I'm loving the design ideas for the ships that Warcradle have done. Still, I'd like to see many of the original designs of some fleets remain the same ( Russians, League of Crimson, and CoA ). After all, Warcradle owns them outright and all the software, nicht wahr? :)
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Ahh, sorry I didn't know about those.
But I agree with his points 100%
I rather thought you would :) Leaving aside the idea that democracy is an invalid concept form a business viewpoint, I have to say I do agree with some of Stuart's points as well. Nevertheless, my point about what the IT crowd call "shareware" still stands, and I doubt that many of the projects created that way can't be called commercial successful.
In any event, I'm very much looking forward to see what comes forward for the DW naval side of things - As I have said before, apart from the UFSA or whatever the Steampunk Seppos are currently called, so far I'm loving the design ideas for the ships that Warcradle have done. Still, I'd like to see many of the original designs of some fleets remain the same ( Russians, League of Crimson, and CoA ). After all, Warcradle owns them outright and all the software, nicht wahr? :)
Despite those other projects working out, in this industry it isnt common and when you have commercial interests they are often in conflict. You can see what happens when we offer any visuals up. There is never consensus across the community. And I think in this day and age most people seem to prefer to express themselves in extremes. Only have to look at recent political events to see it.
We are still going through the masters and molds, and 3d files. A lot of the original models will still feature in the ranges. But we will obviously be looking at how the designs fit with our vision and tweaking some. One of the most obvious things is that Spartan for various reasons used a really simple manufacturing process. Its one of the reasons all the ships hulls flair wider towards waterlines. It obviously has become a key element of the visual style, but we want to take it further. We also want to explore plastics.
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Despite those other projects working out, in this industry it isnt common and when you have commercial interests they are often in conflict. You can see what happens when we offer any visuals up. There is never consensus across the community. And I think in this day and age most people seem to prefer to express themselves in extremes. Only have to look at recent political events to see it.
We are still going through the masters and molds, and 3d files. A lot of the original models will still feature in the ranges. But we will obviously be looking at how the designs fit with our vision and tweaking some. One of the most obvious things is that Spartan for various reasons used a really simple manufacturing process. Its one of the reasons all the ships hulls flair wider towards waterlines. It obviously has become a key element of the visual style, but we want to take it further. We also want to explore plastics.
(Can't gap the quotes on this forum, so I'll deal with these points in order ) I have no experience with commercial interests and/or aspects in the gaming industry, so I can't effectively argue against you assertions here. I'm not entirely convinced, just cannot really debate it.
One of the problems with today's political climate is that the rules and terms of debate are unknown and therefore ignored; One of those terms is "consensus". While Websters American dictionary defines it as 'Absolute unanimity', most other dictionaries including the major English ones define it as 'Majority agreement or general direction of group thinking', which, I would say is what has happened with many of your visuals so far; There are always critics who will never be pleased and we could name and shame all day, however that is irrelevant - The main thrust is, most of your FB followers have in fact been positive about all but one feature of your "tweaking" of designs ( namely, the adding of 'Cow-catchers' onto anything of the American faction, which is a strong element of the WWX theme . . . . Doesn't make it any less ridiculous on naval ships and motorbikes, but it's a theme nonetheless.)
I'm gratified to hear that you will be looking at and retaining designs from the original manufacturer, though I have one question; From a commercial standpoint, wouldn't retaining "a really simple manufacturing process" be advantageous in terms of cost, processing and use of materials? Simpler is often cheaper and faster after all.
"We also want to explore plastics." Well, it worked for GW I admit ( Oh wait, GW never made metal miniatures. :) ). However, given that environmental concerns are seeing bans on plastic use in many countries - notably mine - I'm not looking on this with anything but trepidation.
I am grateful for the feedback here though, don't get me wrong.
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Despite those other projects working out, in this industry it isnt common and when you have commercial interests they are often in conflict. You can see what happens when we offer any visuals up. There is never consensus across the community. And I think in this day and age most people seem to prefer to express themselves in extremes. Only have to look at recent political events to see it.
We are still going through the masters and molds, and 3d files. A lot of the original models will still feature in the ranges. But we will obviously be looking at how the designs fit with our vision and tweaking some. One of the most obvious things is that Spartan for various reasons used a really simple manufacturing process. Its one of the reasons all the ships hulls flair wider towards waterlines. It obviously has become a key element of the visual style, but we want to take it further. We also want to explore plastics.
(Can't gap the quotes on this forum, so I'll deal with these points in order ) I have no experience with commercial interests and/or aspects in the gaming industry, so I can't effectively argue against you assertions here. I'm not entirely convinced, just cannot really debate it.
One of the problems with today's political climate is that the rules and terms of debate are unknown and therefore ignored; One of those terms is "consensus". While Websters American dictionary defines it as 'Absolute unanimity', most other dictionaries including the major English ones define it as 'Majority agreement or general direction of group thinking', which, I would say is what has happened with many of your visuals so far; There are always critics who will never be pleased and we could name and shame all day, however that is irrelevant - The main thrust is, most of your FB followers have in fact been positive about all but one feature of your "tweaking" of designs ( namely, the adding of 'Cow-catchers' onto anything of the American faction, which is a strong element of the WWX theme . . . . Doesn't make it any less ridiculous on naval ships and motorbikes, but it's a theme nonetheless.)
I'm gratified to hear that you will be looking at and retaining designs from the original manufacturer, though I have one question; From a commercial standpoint, wouldn't retaining "a really simple manufacturing process" be advantageous in terms of cost, processing and use of materials? Simpler is often cheaper and faster after all.
"We also want to explore plastics." Well, it worked for GW I admit ( Oh wait, GW never made metal miniatures. :) ). However, given that environmental concerns are seeing bans on plastic use in many countries - notably mine - I'm not looking on this with anything but trepidation.
I am grateful for the feedback here though, don't get me wrong.
Why would we not continue the same processes? Lots of reasons. Just releasing the exact same products with the same limitations ( in our opinion). Is not what we want to do. Lots of the miniatures were designed many years ago, and really show it.
We already have lots of plastics for Wild West Exodus. Where there is a case for manufacturing in plastic, it makes sense to do it. It will not be a huge number of tools but starter sets, for example, tend to be high volume items in comparison to others and they would likely see us explore options.
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"Why would we not continue the same processes? Lots of reasons. Just releasing the exact same products with the same limitations ( in our opinion). Is not what we want to do. Lots of the miniatures were designed many years ago, and really show it."
And how exactly do they "really show it" might I ask? They are supposed to be items from an alternate past, and have therefore no set sort of limit of style unlike say, historical warship miniatures which would benefit from increased levels of details with improved manufacture/sculpting technologies from older casts. If you mean some sort of style change with new ideas - I assume you are referring to something like the first 25mm Science Fiction figures from MINIFIGs IIRC that used undisguised set screws, hooks and other hardware items as weapons, which was not even acceptable at the time, which certainly does not apply here. and given that the most popular designs for Battlemech are those that are up to 30 years old, it seems an odd argument to raise. Can you explain why and how the DW designs have become aged? For that matter, what "limitations" are you referring to?
Sorry if I seem 'shouty' here, I'm just genuinely curious as to what you meant :) primarily because I really don't see how something can become 'out of style' in an SF milieu ( Though I admit the concept of 'Zeerust' can occur like the swept shapes of 1970s sf Armor, thinking of the cover of the original AH "Hammer's Slammers" wargame. ) and I am tempted to call in the "Appeal To Novelty Fallacy" argument, but let's keep this civil :)
"We already have lots of plastics for Wild West Exodus. Where there is a case for manufacturing in plastic, it makes sense to do it."
Fair point and it's a logical move to continue with something you have experience in I do concede. However, you seem to have missed my point - Many countries are looking at banning the sale of plastic items. Will that not impact your sales in some minor way? Were you not around during the New York State lead ban and the whole Ral Partha "Ralidium Alloy" debacle? That one took years to resolve and was one of the factors that led to the demise of the home branch of RP.
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"Why would we not continue the same processes? Lots of reasons. Just releasing the exact same products with the same limitations ( in our opinion). Is not what we want to do. Lots of the miniatures were designed many years ago, and really show it."
And how exactly do they "really show it" might I ask? They are supposed to be items from an alternate past, and have therefore no set sort of limit of style unlike say, historical warship miniatures which would benefit from increased levels of details with improved manufacture/sculpting technologies from older casts. If you mean some sort of style change with new ideas - I assume you are referring to something like the first 25mm Science Fiction figures from MINIFIGs IIRC that used undisguised set screws, hooks and other hardware items as weapons, which was not even acceptable at the time, which certainly does not apply here. and given that the most popular designs for Battlemech are those that are up to 30 years old, it seems an odd argument to raise. Can you explain why and how the DW designs have become aged? For that matter, what "limitations" are you referring to?
Sorry if I seem 'shouty' here, I'm just genuinely curious as to what you meant :) primarily because I really don't see how something can become 'out of style' in an SF milieu ( Though I admit the concept of 'Zeerust' can occur like the swept shapes of 1970s sf Armor, thinking of the cover of the original AH "Hammer's Slammers" wargame. ) and I am tempted to call in the "Appeal To Novelty Fallacy" argument, but let's keep this civil :)
"We already have lots of plastics for Wild West Exodus. Where there is a case for manufacturing in plastic, it makes sense to do it."
Fair point and it's a logical move to continue with something you have experience in I do concede. However, you seem to have missed my point - Many countries are looking at banning the sale of plastic items. Will that not impact your sales in some minor way? Were you not around during the New York State lead ban and the whole Ral Partha "Ralidium Alloy" debacle? That one took years to resolve and was one of the factors that led to the demise of the home branch of RP.
Limitations.. and faults. In some cases, the older miniatures are very poorly detailed. And though of course, it would be easy just to pour some resin into some molds and sell them. We would rather spend the effort making miniatures taking advantage of the manufacturing investments we have made. In many cases the miniatures require remastering, and if we are remastering it makes sense (to us) to improve the miniature where it seems right to do so. There are some other issues regarding casting quality - switching to a far better resin - using some other approaches and steps in manufacturing to reduce bubbles etc. All contribute. Then from a commercial pov, we want the games and minis to appeal to new players. I am/was a Battletech player. I have never seen it played in or available in any store I have visited in the last 15 years so hardly a comparison.
At the end of the day, we are going to do what we think is right for the growth of the game.
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I fear WC will overextend your resources
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Hi Fracas,
thank you for your concern :)
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" In some cases, the older miniatures are very poorly detailed"
Not entirely convinced of that - then again most of my DW items are 2nd edition, and often described as 'overly detailed' so there's that. As to "bubbles" and so forth, I've seen worse casting in some larger outfits products that Spartan, and better quality by smaller outfits, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. In any event, I'd have given Spartan a decent mark for quality, as would many others.
"I am/was a Battletech player. I have never seen it played in or available in any store I have visited in the last 15 years so hardly a comparison."
I'd have to agree that might have been a poor comparison I suppose- Since in my part of the globe, the recent plastic "Alpha Strike" set was available in a lot of the independent games shops. And,. since most of my gaming is at clubs, I see Battletech being played frequently: Shops will tend to only permit games they sell or are trying to sell to be played ( Or at least, that's been my experience ;) ) so games who are primarily internet sourced tend not to appear at shop games days, for good commercial reasons.
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I don't think I ever heard a complaint on any Spartan related forum that their models weren't detailed enough with the exception of the early metal fliers. I don't think anybody had a problem with Warcradle just rereleasing existing models as was to complete collections, nor anybody crying out for the redesign. I really think a mistake was made in the Yankee vessel design where it is one piece with some bits hidden behind and difficult to paint, while the baroque style of the crown and the Russian tanks runs the risk of an aesthetic gap that will annoy collectors. Its a problem of near infinite detail becoming; more divergent from the semi-historical feel some of us rather liked, designed as showing off the wonderful tech and not with painting in mind, creating a divergence in look that might makes it harder to expand existing collections. But ultimately that is my subjective view on the redesign, and I had the same problem with Games Workshop, especially around the Matt Ward Grey Knights era with those monstrous baby papoose devices that lost some of boxy goodness of the human factions and made something that overdesigned the look.
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Redesign to boost sales is good
Redesign to put their own stamp on the product without market gains is a waste of resources
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This came out of a Facebook page discussion of an eBay listing of a League of Crimson set from the Spartan Kickstarter ( The auction is moving into triple figures USD at present ). While discussing if the style fit into Warcradle's ethic, and if these would be released, Stuart noted -
"Rest assured that the Dystopian Age is full of conflict between the major powers. While it’s true there is no world war in the Dystopian Age, the world is teetering on the edge of one And running battles, skirmishes, Little Wars etc rage all over the world pushing the major powers ever closer to a cataclysmic confrontation."
So one of the major FB fan critiques "It's odd to have a wargame in a setting where war isn't actually occurring" is partially countered. I think this shows a move to compromise a little on WCs part.
Mind you, and I have no screen shots to prove it, Stuart also made a couple comments that he then quickly removed; One about how combat was still limited to Arizona and one was . . . Direct and hopeful :)
Still not sure about how being "Historical game based" is such a bad thing as implied heavily several times though. :(
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This came out of a Facebook page discussion of an eBay listing of a League of Crimson set from the Spartan Kickstarter ( The auction is moving into triple figures USD at present ). While discussing if the style fit into Warcradle's ethic, and if these would be released, Stuart noted -
"Rest assured that the Dystopian Age is full of conflict between the major powers. While it’s true there is no world war in the Dystopian Age, the world is teetering on the edge of one And running battles, skirmishes, Little Wars etc rage all over the world pushing the major powers ever closer to a cataclysmic confrontation."
So one of the major FB fan critiques "It's odd to have a wargame in a setting where war isn't actually occurring" is partially countered. I think this shows a move to compromise a little on WCs part.
Mind you, and I have no screen shots to prove it, Stuart also made a couple comments that he then quickly removed; One about how combat was still limited to Arizona and one was . . . Direct and hopeful :)
Still not sure about how being "Historical game based" is such a bad thing as implied heavily several times though. :(
Thanks for sharing this CovertWalrus. Certainly Stuart makes some good noises, but the fact it remains unofficial, and certain things have changed betwixt his vague pronouncements and the official pixels, so I will hold back judgement until it is recorded. I don't like the fact we are facing a setting is still a minute to midnight, meaning you have to buy a campaign book to get to a war, rather a minute past midnight with the first battles raging and the next material opening up new fronts, but I'm not a guy running a multimillion pound gaming company so what do I know? I really don't care for the constant DOOOOOM, but that's personal taste.
The Fantasy/Historical dichotomy is silly. What we are really looking for is a well rounded fantasy setting that feels real enough to populate. Warhammer Fantasy had it, age of Sigmar didn't. Game of thrones and Lord of the Rings had it, a sense of history, consistent rules, a past that makes sense, and that low fantasy sense that whilst there are gigantic stuff going on, conspiracies of ancient evils, even the smallest Hobbit's actions can make a difference, the world isn't set in stone.
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From a friend with access to the facebook group, this new pronouncement from Stuart seems quite important
The Dystopian Age is a new setting. It isn’t the same as the old game. It isn’t trying to be. So really any opinions on what should or shouldn’t be in the Dystopian Age are really just personal tastes. This is not adding some supernatural elements to the old game. It’s a new game. No narrative connections at all. No continuation. Fresh start. It’s up to each player whether they want to take it or not.
So in this regard its tough for us old guard who liked the old setting, because it feels so close and yet so far. The new names, the basic designs twisted to a new setting with a different take on fluff and aesthetics. The success of recent fan popular games and films has been the careful use of continuity and continuation to give something previous fans can enjoy whilst still making them new and interesting. Look at necromunda or bloodbowl, or contrast continuity happy Marvel, with dark and brooding DC in films.
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There's been some lively debate on the FB page for DW where the WC staff are moderators. It's been quite polite ( Well, with one exception when *someone* likened anyone who dislikes the new background as a crazy old spinster with ten cats . . . . :/) and rather informative. The head of WC and the whole of Wayland Games, Richard, was commenting on how poorly the last year of sales were for Spartan and that lead to this interesting comment -
"The Kickstarter didn't really impact the sales, I'd suggest. The player base and numbers of players involved are not large enough to give good evidence of habits and trends for specific events. They had resin the year before, the numbers were not very different. WWX sales when we took over were half that of DWars. We think there is lots of potential for Dystopian Wars btw"
Let's focus on two parts of that -
1. The first sentence was in response to my observation that many people on FB heaped scorn on all the special offers Spartan made while the Kickstarter was under way and toward the end of the company. basically saying " You'll get no more money until we get our pledge stuff!" Now, I think Richard is suggesting I either hallucinated that, or it was only a tiny percentage of the whole of Spartan's customer base. I'll concede one of those suggestions might be partly correct.
2. Note the last two sentences. Note also that I and a couple of others asked if WWX was being propped up by the DW franchise, hence the need to shoehorn them together. Obviously, you only need to support the system that sells less that the other, right? :)
I will however agree with the last sentence. I'm not in full agreement with the way that "potential" is being directed.
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It seems odd to me that the way to unlock that potential is to denigrate what came before rather than build on it, but that is probably bitterness speaking.
He mentions figures for WWX before hand but not currently? Right now I expect WWX to outsell DWars because there is an expensive redesigned Ice Maiden versus a much larger and cheaper range. How much have sales of WWX increased, one presumes from a low base? Its not massively popular in my area, especially compared to DWars at its peak. Sales again could mean a lot of things. Number of products? Value? Hard to directly compare with sensitive numbers data.
Low sales for DWars I think reflected Spartan's ADHD concentrating on Halo, and the massive boost for Canadians coming too late. There seemed to be enough demand online for them to spawn some alternative sculpts after Spartan's demise. This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product. The Kickstarter implies that too.
Similarly the question of popularity doesn't matter directly for fluff, its what fits the game. DWars is a steampunk wargame, needs a more eccentric alt history feel to allow for sweeping wars, countries striving and massed battles. WWX is a Weird Wild West game and so needs ghosts and conspiracies and aliens. The two don't organically mesh, so requires some finesse to bring them together or else to sacrifice some of the flavour of one or both which maybe alienating for long term fans of either or both. Currently it seems that DWars is getting the brunt of the flavour loss in the new amalgam setting.
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I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.
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I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.
Agree absolutely. While the availability of minis will attract a few newcomers and keep a lot of already playing gamers happy, the biggest part of this will be the new rules. WC have already said definitely that "large sections of the original rules will be scrapped to make it easier for new players to enter the game' which is a pretty worrying in some ways statement, but then, what rules system has not got detractors who would change large sections?
This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product. The Kickstarter implies that too.
I have said this before and will do so again - Spartan Games as a company had many faults, and most if not all of them were in the business operation, particularly advertising and financial. To my mind at least however, we have seen the IP move from great game fans with no heads for business, to a group of dedicated salespeople with a passing interest in game design and play.
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New models can be ignored; I already have 6 land-sea-air factions
New fluff as well
But a bad new rules will force me to play 2.5 making it hard to build a gaming community ( asi have recently moved)
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I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.
Agree absolutely. While the availability of minis will attract a few newcomers and keep a lot of already playing gamers happy, the biggest part of this will be the new rules. WC have already said definitely that "large sections of the original rules will be scrapped to make it easier for new players to enter the game' which is a pretty worrying in some ways statement, but then, what rules system has not got detractors who would change large sections?
This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product. The Kickstarter implies that too.
I have said this before and will do so again - Spartan Games as a company had many faults, and most if not all of them were in the business operation, particularly advertising and financial. To my mind at least however, we have seen the IP move from great game fans with no heads for business, to a group of dedicated salespeople with a passing interest in game design and play.
I started gaming 36 years ago. Stuart being younger than me slightly later. I think 2 of our (47) UK staff are not gamers. Everyone else is definitely a gamer.
I didn't notice that you asked if we were propping up WWX by merging it with Dwars. Both could have been considered failed games in the past. WWX is now selling really really well. Dwars has the chance to do just as well. It has been in decline for a long time and we think we can improve that situation. We are not merging the games, we are creating a setting to base games in. There are changes to the setting that impact both WWX and DW. It would be a bit daft of us to have 2 near identical settings based in exactly the same time frame.
BTW I wasnt suggesting you hallucinated the comments on facebook. All I can say is that there was no dip in sales that coincided with those postings. If people held back purchasing because of the Kickstarter, it didn't have a material impact. The company was going to fail at some point in any case.
Also, Danny we are not sales people, I am not going to make excuses for being organized like a business though. We strive to be as organised and efficient as we can so that we are around tomorrow. It allows us to plan for a future that we might see rather than collapse in a mess.
So as I said on facebook, we are creating a game that will have a strong ecosystem to grow in, apps, organized lay, lots of resources, a good distribution footprint and sales people to give it a chance. None of those things were present before. We also want a friendly encouraging environment for new players to feel welcomed into.
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Still merging the fluff awkwardly. Weird wild west with occult themes is very different from much harder massed combat steampunk game, and the fact you continue to not get that, and try and merge the setting awkwardly is worrying. Business reasons used as an excuse doesn't explain why you as such a big gamer don't get the difference between what a skirmish game needs, lots of competing lists and synergies, and a massed wargame needs, which is easier to paint models, lists that work for each faction without need of a boss, instead because tactics, and fluff that isn't about secret alien conspiracies, but about why your dudes war and sacrifice is making a difference. Because so far for a businessman you've made decisions that make gaming harder, such as continuity of setting, continuity of game and that big gap in selling stuff which means the community dwindles, especially as your online 'friendliness' of your team has people who want to be critical friends afraid to speak, whilst as a gamer you are creating models that look pretty hard to paint, fluff that is edging some unpleasant racist tropes, and continue to mock those who liked the game you bought. All the fancy apps in the world won't help if this these basics things aren't got right. I wouldn't keep mentioning them and moaning about them if I didn't believe it possible you can get this, dial back the unfortunate connotations or give the space of a multiverse to allow existing fans to enjoy the game.
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Still merging the fluff awkwardly. Weird wild west with occult themes is very different from much harder massed combat steampunk game, and the fact you continue to not get that, and try and merge the setting awkwardly is worrying. Business reasons used as an excuse doesn't explain why you as such a big gamer don't get the difference between what a skirmish game needs, lots of competing lists and synergies, and a massed wargame needs, which is easier to paint models, lists that work for each faction without need of a boss, instead because tactics, and fluff that isn't about secret alien conspiracies, but about why your dudes war and sacrifice is making a difference. Because so far for a businessman you've made decisions that make gaming harder, such as continuity of setting, continuity of game and that big gap in selling stuff which means the community dwindles, especially as your online 'friendliness' of your team has people who want to be critical friends afraid to speak, whilst as a gamer you are creating models that look pretty hard to paint, fluff that is edging some unpleasant racist tropes, and continue to mock those who liked the game you bought. All the fancy apps in the world won't help if this these basics things aren't got right. I wouldn't keep mentioning them and moaning about them if I didn't believe it possible you can get this, dial back the unfortunate connotations or give the space of a multiverse to allow existing fans to enjoy the game.
Thanks, Danny, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
We keep going around in circles. We are not going to make a game to suit you it seems as we fundamentally disagree on so much. But the remarks about mocking people that disagree is just nonsense to be blunt. You are taking everything you do not like and exaggerating it to the worst possible point to try and make a point.
We are not letting the game dwindle, you still have everything you played with at the demise of Spartan. We have not taken anything from you so carry on playing. We want to make a clear statement when products are released again. We don't want to just cast up any old molds and sell them. Yes, it is more difficult than the former but we want to do it right. To us, that means assessing everything. It isn't about us not getting it, we have a vision and we are going to execute it. The fluff is not being merged awkwardly. We made a decision and you have barely seen the briefest parts of the vision. Regarding the world is at war, we have not said there isn't conflict. We have just made it clear that in the Dystopian Age there isn't an all-out war underway. I am pretty sure that has been clarified multiple times but you keep ignoring it. So on that note, I am going to bow out of discussions on MBS as they are getting circular and pretty pointless.
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You haven't responded to my my points over this, that's fine but here is the thing that is currently annoying me.
We are not merging the games, we are creating a setting to base games in. There are changes to the setting that impact both WWX and DW. It would be a bit daft of us to have 2 near identical settings based in exactly the same time frame.
They were two very very different settings. They both kind of shared a steampunk setting, but in the same way Star Wars and Star Trek share a Sci-fi setting. Both involve Spaceships, but the aesthetic and the vision of both settings vary wildly. To explain this in the terms of the games.
1. The scale of the games
DWars - the whole of the world in 1868-76, playing at either an army, fleet or squad level. WWX - The wild west in the twilight (so pretty late 1880s onwards) with a gang of maybe 10 people.
2 Aesthetic
DWars - industrial, massed produced, historical, practical. WWX - Wild west, cheesecakey, heroic, high levels of oversized equipment, unrealistic fantasy.
3. Background
DWars - Alt history, with limited changes to history, high level politics, military feel. WWX - Fantasy, magical and occult, alien influences, limited agency, pulp, mysterious East.
Beyond being set in the latter half of the 19th century they aren't alike. Your merger of the two represents weakening the strengths of the two settings, that WWX is a fantasy, and that DWars is practical steampunk. Now that is your decision to make, but that you don't seem to grasp that they two very different games, with very different visions of the past and what they represent worries me, just as you seem unaware of the somewhat racist tropes WWX sometimes plays with is also something that needs better development in the future.
Certainly you are right, I keep getting the merest hints of your grand masterplan, and if it is willing to accept and develop some of these ideas better I will be very pleased. These things are obviously an ongoing process, the potential scale of the game vast, and being able to have differing visions on how games like this work is important for the development process.
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Setting aside the incoming changes to DW for a moment, here is an essay I've written where I dig into where I see the current DW background as it relates to our own history:
http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2018/02/11/dystopian-wars-and-world-war-ii/
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Setting aside the incoming changes to DW for a moment, here is an essay I've written where I dig into where I see the current DW background as it relates to our own history:
http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2018/02/11/dystopian-wars-and-world-war-ii/
Very nice overview of the original setting, Ruckdog. I agree with the basic conclusions and must point out that you have hit the nail on the head about the differences that make the metaphor of "Steampunk WW2" not such a good fit- The entire DW world is far more egalitarian than our own was ( May even say is? :) ) and one of the points of that is even in the fluff, the Kingdom of Britannia encourages it's agents in colonial lands to "go native" so as to enrich both cultures and build diplomatic ties.
I think it's the one thing all us original players agree pretty near absolutely on, that this was a solid, credible and fun background.
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I think of it as WW1 in national powers fighting with advanced weapons
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Ruckdog I think gets a lot right here. There are definitely technological analogs to the kind of armoured and naval warfare of WWII but by careful work you avoid all the ideological backlog of that conflict, and most Victorian colonial conflict by careful use of fluff and making sure all nations feel at least militarily up to the challenge on the tabletop. China is distinctively China, the Ottomans are the Ottomans, but neither are shown to be exotic and are definitely the equals of the great power in effective mechanised units and tech, and so limits the tech gap that some of the more unpleasant tropes steampunk based upon can raise.
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I think you can have alternative historical science fiction (SG’s DW) or alternative historical fantasy (WWX) but alternative historical science fantasy will be neither. If you emphasize the science while permitting fantasy you end up with gothic ( league of extraordinary gentlemen with Jules Verne style science and vampires, resulting in mr Hyde). If you emphasize the fantasy while permitting science fiction you get something lovecraftian and eldritch. Very hard to do both well.
I am not sure why the two background needs to be merged officially rather than leave it separate with implied linkage (Sigmar as the 40k Emperor? Is he or isn’t he?)
And if the two uses two different styles of rules : one with exploding 6 and One without, then why not have both as different games and background. Why shoehorn the two into a shotgun marriage?
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I think you can have alternative historical science fiction (SG’s DW) or alternative historical fantasy (WWX) but alternative historical science fantasy will be neither. If you emphasize the science while permitting fantasy you end up with gothic ( league of extraordinary gentlemen with Jules Verne style science and vampires, resulting in mr Hyde). If you emphasize the fantasy while permitting science fiction you get something lovecraftian and eldritch. Very hard to do both well.
This may well be the best summation of the genre approaches I have ever seen. May I please quote you outside of here on this? :)
I am not sure why the two background needs to be merged officially rather than leave it separate with implied linkage (Sigmar as the 40k Emperor? Is he or isn’t he?)
And if the two uses two different styles of rules : one with exploding 6 and One without, then why not have both as different games and background. Why shoehorn the two into a shotgun marriage?
And this is why the Warcradle management and DW players are at loggerheads; Players can't see why this wedding needs to take place, as they believe that better handling of the game financially and availability-wise combined with better promotion will maintain and bring growth, while WC insists that making it more Gothic and fantasy is the only way new players will be attracted to it and continue it's success. Neither wants to modify or compromise it's position ( Though the studio head seems to try to sit on the fence at most times, and kudos to him ), and thus any discussion breaks down in flames.
It's going to be a long hard road if neither side makes even the smallest concession here.
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We have already seen the problem on this thread CovertWalrus, with the head of the company claiming to the two settings are 'near identical', rather than seeing the difference and understanding why that difference is problematic. I don't envy trying to defend that proposition. To be fair, with the exception of the 'dreaming' mentioned in the Nianjing fluff, most of the fluff put for the Dystopian wars part of the setting on the website involves little of the arch gothic feel of the WWX, but does involve these 8 not necessarily very tidy alliance blocs and the 'Great War' just over the horizon, because if it happens everyone thinks it will destroy the world, which again is more gothic over the First World War style, one more push and it will all be over of early DWars and everyone summoning allies. However, the problem remains that a big change in fluff and feel is being forced, and whilst I am certainly glad that the company seems to be more open about the shift of direction now, I really don't care for it all, because it is more fantasy, it is more grimdark, and it is less of what DWars interesting to me, and as we have discussed previously, it is a riskier business proposition in some ways as there plenty of grimdark fantasy settings out there, and a couple of big boys in the steampunk fantasy business who will be difficult to shift.
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I'll be honest, since I've enjoyed the WWX background, and any depth in the DW background was severely lacking, I've always been fine with the idea of blending the worlds. It helps that Craig Gallant has written for both even.
Bottom line for me was "Wait and See" when something real is actually published.
Combining the factions is no biggie - ask any retailer and there's a SKU glut anyways, so fewer factions helps that.
If I was a new person to the game (and now a year plus since most retailers had dropped Spartan, most folks will be "new") I'd be encouraged and intrigued by what WC proposes to do.
If I was a new person, and I read what CovertWalrus and Rulebritannia say, and took you as representative of players of the game, I'd run FAR away from Dystopian Wars, and rarely look back. Heck, you guys make me want to do that even as someone who's played since the first Uncharted Seas box dropped.
You've gone on at length that you don't want Mystic peanut butter in your Steampunk Chocolate. I do. In fact, the steampunk media I've consumed has always had a mystical component. I don't see the issue - to me its like complaining that all that "Jedi stuff" ruins the science fiction of Star Wars. Or that having the Vulcan Katra stuff in Trek ruins that. (Admittedly, having "God" in Star Trek V totally ruined that, but that's another story).
I've written and rewritten and deleted several paragraphs now. All the negativity is just frustrating, and over product that doesn't even exist yet. Signing off.
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Dakkar, I am happy for you as someone pleased for the new version. However, telling people to not be negative generally doesn't help, and we have had some things published as at least semi canon to judge the new fluff. To me the WWX fluff is rather shallow and pretty problematic with its depictions, and needs a major rewrite, whilst I think Franco's work and the main rulebooks created for me an alt history I could easily imagine and felt involved with. Regarding the change to factions SKU problems don't seem to be the reason for the change, since WC seem to want to previous factions, merely relabel them.
Do you not remember how bent out of shape all the Star Wars fans got when George Lucas added a sciencey explanation for the force with Midichlorians? It is closer to that in that it isn't an inherent part of the setting but something that is now being rectonned in later.
There is a very interesting divide you are implying, and it could be that we who don't care for this new vision could be holding back the product. There is an interesting risk of losing existing, committed fans who (myself included) were excited about promoting the new game, but as you say it could be a big seller to people not interested.
I am pretty interested though Dakkar in how you feel mystical stuff improves DWars? Sell it to me please.
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I am not against fluff revisions
Or linkage
I would be fine with linking DW (past) with Firestorm (future)
I think DW fluff is fine; Firestorm fluff is wanting
I am open to hearing more about WC plans; my negativity pertains to mostly what WC has said not what has yet to be revealed
I think those that like the current DW fluff are most against the pending changes
Those that think the current DW fluff is wanting, like Dakkar?, is more receptive
Satisfying both will certainly be difficult
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any depth in the DW background was severely lacking
Well, Dakker if you're still reading this, I must say and without trying to be negative, the DW fluff was at least in 2.0 not lacking in depth in my opinion, and coming from a historical background I think I can judge that :)
Heck, you guys make me want to do that even as someone who's played since the first Uncharted Seas box dropped.
Pardon me? US and DW are two unrelated games that happen to be naval and done by the same company originally. Frankly, Warcradle's plans for US I happen to think have been great what little they've talked about ( Which has been far less than DW to be fair ). Not sure what point you were making here, apart from RuleBritannia and I being negative and we certainly haven't said anything bad about Uncharted Seas. Ever.
I don't see the issue - to me its like complaining that all that "Jedi stuff" ruins the science fiction of Star Wars.
Do you not remember how bent out of shape all the Star Wars fans got when George Lucas added a sciencey explanation for the force with Midichlorians? It is closer to that in that it isn't an inherent part of the setting but something that is now being rectonned in later.
Well, RuleBritannia, that's not quite what Dakkar meant, as it still meant Jedi were part of the story and even more of an SF element. Though you are right, there was quite a stink raised about it, so it was quietly dropped.
Actually, people here might recall that there was a great amount of complaint about "Jedi stuff" in Star Wars; Ben Bova, noted aerospace engineer, SF writer and editor of ANALOG magazine at the time wrote several scathing editorials about how the science in SW took a back seat to "mystical powers of chosen ones" several times, like the targeting computer in the Death Star trench run. He and others were shouted down, mostly because the advent of SW did have a knock-on effect in creating new SF fans, many of whom began to move to the Hard SF of Bova and such authors, with some positive results, but mainly because there was a feeling that SF was a "crap-sack American Ghetto" literature at best, and that Fantasy, written usually by posh people with British accents, was always a superior thing for people to be involved in, and that anything to increase interest was considered a Good Thing.
( Of course, many posh British authors wrote SF too - Lewis, Stapledon and Huxley were even contemporaries of Tolkien - but Fantasy has always seemed to be more legitimate and thus promoted than SF. It seems to come over from literature to gaming quite a lot; You see historical players who are much more willing to have fantasy elements in their games than any advanced or SF elements all the time )).
here is a very interesting divide you are implying, and it could be that we who don't care for this new vision could be holding back the product. There is an interesting risk of losing existing, committed fans who (myself included) were excited about promoting the new game, but as you say it could be a big seller to people not interested.
And that does scare me; Do I raise my voice about what's happening, when doing that might prevent what I enjoy doing being changed beyond recognition, or do I keep silent, accept the change no matter what, praise the new unreservedly and constantly, and learn to be happy with something I don't like?
I once pointed out in a FB post that since Warcradle own the IP and can do whatever they like, including change the game completely, dump all the old sculpts for new ones and even change the scale, because they can, and we like female actors working under Harvey Weinstien have to keep mum about our concerns or leave and never be involved again. ( Stuart erased that entire comment, though it was at the very end of a long post where I pointed out my concerns were small compared to what I liked about Warcradle's operations ).
Maybe that's harsh.
Maybe that's negative.
It's how I feel, and can anyone tell me what other SF wet naval game there is to go to if Idecide to leave?
I am open to hearing more about WC plans; my negativity pertains to mostly what WC has said not what has yet to be revealed
And so am I. I just won't automatically say "I love it it is great" every time to everything if I don't mean it. I will heap on praise when I like something, and I can't say fairer than that. Besides, I'm playing the game and recruiting players, so I don't think I'm actively killing the game. :) (I'm so tempted to make a joke about sock-puppets and a certain minis manufacturer who used such accounts on fora to promote himself, however that was a long time ago and I'll end this on a positive note.)
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I am pretty interested though Dakkar in how you feel mystical stuff improves DWars? Sell it to me please.
The Cthulhu-route mentioned (while difficult) is the best potential. The literature of that era is rife with "Things Man should not tamper with!" The use of Sturginium/ Element whatever could be destabilizing the barriers between worlds. This puts a time limit on the Steampunk world, either forcing a change or a catastrophe. Perhaps a whole faction of those who've "gone over" to the madness, ala the Pathogen in FSA.
Feel-wise, I often also go back to the comics version (only) for LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN, and all the attendants source material. Going back to the Era's literature, you have Stoker, Shelley, Wells, Stevenson, and others to draw upon. All with supernatural bents here and there.
The series PENNY DREADFUL is another entry that would fit quite well.
And while not of our world, the pseudo-Napoleonic books of THE THOUSAND NAMES world (by Django Wexler) have some good hooks on Magic that could be inspirational.
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Dakkar have you read the WWX fluff? Whilst your vision would work for DWars, adding in gradually the sense of apocalypse, and wouod be nice contrasted with optimistic progress science of the CoA. I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.
However, the myatical stuff in WWX is either gaia spirit for native Americans, evil space Vampires controlling Asia and eating their Chi, an evil alien conspiracy running colonialism, some greys stuck on earth, the Christian church the creation of xenocidal energy beings, and a mad scientist gone crazy and powering stuff on alien blood. It renders mankind as strangely impotent and powerless, meddled with rather the meddler.
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I haven't read enough WWX fluff, just enough to for overview and most of the 1st book. As necessity, I imagine WWX focuses on smaller scale Wild West stories defined by people and places.
One aspect of absorbing existing scope, is that WWX can be changed by DW - much of what you list just don't impact or remotely apply to a fleet under full steam, or giant robots stomping into someone's harbor.
One perspective is that the world is BIG, and big enough to handle just about every variant and trope thrown in the mix.
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I don't mind *some* elements of magic . . . It's just that as both a scientist and a believer in the dignity and equality of all human beings, I'm against the fantasy depiction of magic as it turns up in games and wouldn't like to see it become dominant in a game setting.
To quote Herbert W Armstrong " Let me explain what I mean by that . . . ". Magic is perforce elitist in that only specific individuals can utilize it, and they usually do so at the expense of non-magic users unless curtailed by savage and brutal restrictions. Otherwise the magic users, much like the Q entity and such like in Star Trek, will by intent or accident destroy all others. ( Recall "the Squire Of Gothos"? yeah, that guy. . . ). Among even the best wizards, or every hundred Potters, there's always a Riddle :) With science and technology, it's always possible for anyone to learn enough to operate it at some level, though of course you still have the problem of negative intentions and misuse.
Now in implementing magic, in game terms, unless it is well written and managed, magic certainyl seems to have been basically the "beardy cheese" option in games; The ability to act at a distance with limited restrictions is always problematical. It's something tactics cannot work around to oppose or defend against, so it comes down to who can field the most powerful magic and scan simply become an arms race between players and while that may appeal, it fails to do so for me, and I would "Run well away" from games where this became dominant.
It seems to me, and I confess that I may well be wrong in this, that WWX moved towards that point itself, and I wouldn't much like to see it enter in DW as well. Of course, magic in games built for the presence of magic like Uncharted Seas, where it was the sole weapon of some fleets, but was balanced against the physical forces of other factions. Perhaps that will happen here, perhaps not. I shall wait and see.
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I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.
Or heaven forfend, the direction could take a unique approach :) Or at least a slightly different one: the horror and SF writer Colin Wilson wrote a more SF oriented approach to the Lovecraft universe with his novels "The Mind Parasites" and "The Philosopher's Stone" which created a no more benign but more rationally and scientifically based interpretation of Cthulhu and suchlike eldritch creatures in the universe.
though I'd be more than happy with your take there, RuleBritannia. :) I suppose the negativity I might generate comes from the frustration of how Warcradle tends to drip-feed things out and often contradicts itself even while trying to be vague about it's plans if they aren't fully formed. Still, guess we have to put up with it until something solid happens. ( No, I didn't mean the Ice Maiden :) though that's a really impressive start )
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I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.
Or heaven forfend, the direction could take a unique approach :) Or at least a slightly different one: the horror and SF writer Colin Wilson wrote a more SF oriented approach to the Lovecraft universe with his novels "The Mind Parasites" and "The Philosopher's Stone" which created a no more benign but more rationally and scientifically based interpretation of Cthulhu and suchlike eldritch creatures in the universe.
though I'd be more than happy with your take there, RuleBritannia. :) I suppose the negativity I might generate comes from the frustration of how Warcradle tends to drip-feed things out and often contradicts itself even while trying to be vague about it's plans if they aren't fully formed. Still, guess we have to put up with it until something solid happens. ( No, I didn't mean the Ice Maiden :) though that's a really impressive start )
Uniqueness comes in many forms with game design. I liked old Warhammer Fantasy, because whilst each race was very often a rip off of a historical army, there were no other games where Medieval knights could fight Lizard Aztecs and it all kind of worked. The preference is of course personal, and I may be among the dozen or so for whom the steampunk alt history really resonated as an interesting place to explore and play games, and enjoyed the focus on the battle being rationalism and a belief in progress against the dangers of jingoism and patriotism, very much playing out against a high Victorian belief in advancing forwards, pride against whats needed. Nobody needed to be the 'bad guy', the historical setting meant the fun weird stuff stood out. It didn't need a fantasy element, or a ticking clock to human doom to be interesting to me.
However, we are where we are. Whilst its easy to whine that the change I don't like is bad, I am not coming at it from an objective place. But its great to hear ideas from CovertWalrus and Dakkar that show they get the setting, but also ways you can integrate the weird elements in without sacrificing the steampunk rationalism that I really enjoyed. I do hope this is something that WC can manage, and that Rich, who seems to enjoy himself monitoring these conversations, gets it. WWX fluff as stands, works for that skirmish setting, but has plenty of problems in terms of agency for our nations and characters controlled by alien actors, the conflict being much smaller, the alien blood tech, and the great spirit magic. I do hope this is at least toned down, and that human agency is given more space. Also that vessels don't have too much fantasy to them, but given space to either Victorian imagined science or it could sort of work science.
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Keeping it alternative history with a little weird science, and a whiff of gothic is imo the right balance.
Alien vampire cabal is too much.
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Alien vampire cabal is too much.
Has the gaming world learned nothing from how White Wolf screwed up the Tzmices Clan? ;-)
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I think you are on to something Dakkar. How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame? Do you set up a bit of barrier with references to the weird stuff that secretly runs the world but generally doesn't interfere with the battles of nations and giant tanks? Do you go all in and let the Chinese alien vampire cabal use mind control powers in game?
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Alien vampire cabal is too much.
Has the gaming world learned nothing from how White Wolf screwed up the Tzmices Clan? ;-)
Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?
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How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame?
I don't mind Vampires per se in the fluff. Their numbers would of necessity be small, thus no real in-game impact at the fleet level, save maybe a neat idea of having nigh-immortal generals. Imagine a vampiric Sun Tzu personally commanding your forces?
Alien Vampires though? That's extra dumb, like a bad X-Files :-)
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Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?
The sourcebook "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" revealed that the entire Vicissitude Discipline, was essentially a space alien virus hive-mind thing. And all Tzmices practicing it were corrupted pawns. Sort of like The Thing, but in slow-mo for Vampires only.
Talk about removing agency for an entire Clan in one fell and badly thought out swoop!
Most folks ignored it entirely as anti-Sabbat propaganda, or simply bad writing. But once told, a terrible story is hard to untell.
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How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame?
I don't mind Vampires per se in the fluff. Their numbers would of necessity be small, thus no real in-game impact at the fleet level, save maybe a neat idea of having nigh-immortal generals. Imagine a vampiric Sun Tzu personally commanding your forces?
Alien Vampires though? That's extra dumb, like a bad X-Files :-)
What about chi drinking Alien Vampires secretly running all of Asia as immortal god emperors?
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What about chi drinking Alien Vampires secretly running all of Asia as immortal god emperors?
Where are they actually from? If true aliens, why is it not a proper invasion/occupation?
Are they equating the Chinese to aliens? At the very least, it sounds insulting to Chinese Imperial Culture.
And how does "chi-drinking" actually work? Emotional Vampires should only be used in metaphors and classic Star Trek episodes.
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Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?
The sourcebook "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" revealed that the entire Vicissitude Discipline, was essentially a space alien virus hive-mind thing. And all Tzmices practicing it were corrupted pawns. Sort of like The Thing, but in slow-mo for Vampires only.
Talk about removing agency for an entire Clan in one fell and badly thought out swoop!
Most folks ignored it entirely as anti-Sabbat propaganda, or simply bad writing. But once told, a terrible story is hard to untell.
Thanks for the info. Sounds dumb!
There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.
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There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.
With Patrick Stewart! A semi-classic, but also terrible. :-)
Maybe that's where the Chi-Vampire idea comes from.
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What about chi drinking Alien Vampires secretly running all of Asia as immortal god emperors?
Where are they actually from? If true aliens, why is it not a proper invasion/occupation?
Are they equating the Chinese to aliens? At the very least, it sounds insulting to Chinese Imperial Culture.
And how does "chi-drinking" actually work? Emotional Vampires should only be used in metaphors and classic Star Trek episodes.
My apologies everyone, I've gone back to 1.05 rulebook, and the Vampires ruling Asia, unlike the illuminati running Europe and the upper echelons of the church, are not Aliens or alien controlled. Instead they are described as variously 'revenants', and 'monsters who rule empires from twilight palaces in utter defiance of the mass of humanity', that Westerners can't understand due to 'so many difference between western cultures and countless civilisations of Asia'.
The truth, for those very few who have discovered it and escaped with their lives, is darker still than any speculation. Whether they were once human or not is subject for eternal debate. What is inconvertible, however, is that they are human no longer.
The Jade Emperors live upon two planes simultaneously; their physical bodies live with us, trapped within the usual three dimensions, observable, for the most part,
with our five senses, and interacting with the waking world as any other creature native to the earth. However, they are also able to perceive the spirit world that exists in tandem with our own, and interact with it on a terrible, predacious level.
The Jade Emperors sense the spirit energy that holds the Earth in its protective web, and further can feed off that energy, siphoning it from its original source into their dark, corrupted souls.
How they suck that delicious chi is charming too
It is believed that the Jade Emperors habitually draw the life force, or chi as they call it, directly from human victims, savouring its varied richness and infinite variety. Each race upon the Earth brings chi with its own unique flavour and some of those flavours are more sought after than others.
There is a brief description that shows they can be murder happy and suck all that yummy chi straight from folks.
The Jade Emperors have ruled over extensive tracts of Asia for thousands of years, slowly spreading out from whatever dark and hellish pit spawned them.
Their expansion into the mountains and coastal regions has been slow and methodical, avoiding unnecessary disruptions of civil rule that might draw attention to the Emperors before the defences of their new holdings were fully prepared.
The peoples of Asia are referred to as 'their herd'.
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Okay, so the Jade Emperors <=> Lo Pan from BTILC
That's not so bad at all. I love that movie!
No more preposterous that a Lizardman Deep State running the Federated States ;-)
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Okay, so the Jade Emperors <=> Lo Pan from BTILC
That's not so bad at all. I love that movie!
No more preposterous that a Lizardman Deep State running the Federated States ;-)
Big trouble in Steampunk China
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There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.
With Patrick Stewart! A semi-classic, but also terrible. :-)
Maybe that's where the Chi-Vampire idea comes from.
Yes, and yet the original novel by Colin Wilson, was a pretty nice melding of classic Gothic vampires and pulp SF. Completely messed about in the movie though.
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There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.
With Patrick Stewart! A semi-classic, but also terrible. :-)
Maybe that's where the Chi-Vampire idea comes from.
Yes, and yet the original novel by Colin Wilson, was a pretty nice melding of classic Gothic vampires and pulp SF. Completely messed about in the movie though.
Book was good, movie was highly disappointing, even to a sci-fi/monster loving teen like me back then.
I must admit that I'm unsure about having an alien vampire captaining my Khatanga, or a demon-prince cowboy with a plasma blaster cannon in place of one of his six arms driving my Ika under the waves, or wherever this is all going. We really just need to wait and see what Warcradle's vision manifests as. Sounds like it's sizing up to be a very different game, and that's just fine. The fluff doesn't control the game play if you don't want it to. If our gaming group likes the new rules, great. If not, we'll play 2.whatever.
I'm more concerned about good looking miniatures to spend my money on. If those aren't in the cards, there are plenty of other alternatives.
My two-cents...
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After reading all of these comments, I have to ask why all the hating on existing DW fluff. Many comments would make you believe that it was virtually non-existent.
I have all three DW campaign books and have read them all several times over. I enjoyed reading about what motivations drove factions to to what they did and how they went about achieving/blowing their goals. Sure, I wanted more and Spartan was slowly churning it out. And it gave me hope that we'd see the same thing happen for FA (which honestly had almost zero fluff).
Games based on Star Trek/Wars universes have tons of built-in fluff. 40K has had time to mature and build a rich history for itself. Are we making comparisons to these types of games (which would be quite unfair)? What am I missing or am I simply misunderstanding people's thoughts?
I doubt more/better fluff would have saved Spartan. Now it's in Warcradle's hands to create and build upon.
And in the end, the subject of this thread makes much of this discussion moot. But I am curious.
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After reading all of these comments, I have to ask why all the hating on existing DW fluff. Many comments would make you believe that it was virtually non-existent.
I have all three DW campaign books and have read them all several times over.
Yes, that annoys me too as it also seems to be the official Warcradle line. The last rule book I got ( 2.5, PDF ) is pretty damn complete :)
Sure, I wanted more and Spartan was slowly churning it out. And it gave me hope that we'd see the same thing happen for FA (which honestly had almost zero fluff).
And suffered for it, although it was a good game in most other respects. Some games seem to work without a lot of background, but FA just felt a little Hollow with a lot of overview of tactics and strategy, rather than detailed faction stories.
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There is a constant attitude from WC of deriding Spartan, it's fluff, it's moulds and models so as to justify their actions. It is possible to discuss how you are going to improve things without telling us how bad your predecessor was, especially when taking over fan communities. Similarly, there were some comments discussing how fans weren't doing enough or too few of us hence it's our fault things have to change rather than spending time telling us how things will improve.
I get that change happens, and Spartan failed as a company, but a softer approach, and more concern to not deride the product you are updating would be nice.
*Sorry for the rant, just something that has bugged me for a while about the attitude WC has taken to the fans, fluff and models of Spartan.
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I still wish them success
Btw, Chinese girls do not come with green eyes :)
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There is a constant attitude from WC of deriding Spartan, it's fluff, it's moulds and models so as to justify their actions. It is possible to discuss how you are going to improve things without telling us how bad your predecessor was, especially when taking over fan communities. Similarly, there were some comments discussing how fans weren't doing enough or too few of us hence it's our fault things have to change rather than spending time telling us how things will improve.
I get that change happens, and Spartan failed as a company, but a softer approach, and more concern to not deride the product you are updating would be nice.
*Sorry for the rant, just something that has bugged me for a while about the attitude WC has taken to the fans, fluff and models of Spartan.
No need to apologize especially as you have struck to the heart of my greatest argument; The way WC have been trying to make their mark on the IP not by showing us what they can do ( Well, to some extent ) but by saying what they won't do because Spartan did it and they did everything wrong.
They have been flip-flopping on the miniatures form Spartan for some time, as an example: First, there was no product cast when they took over, which certainly has been verified. Then, they say they have 10 000 master files and stacks of unsorted molds to catalogue. After that, it was that the molds were all useless for producing anything of the old lines. And after that, it was hinting that some of the older designs will be retained, but followed by "Hey, look at the neat and MUCH BETTER stuff we are gonna do!"
Inconsistent story and often contradicted - Though try and prove that on the fora and/or Facebook pages where the WC staff are moderators, and you'll find Orwell at work ( You know? "He who controls the past . . . " :) ) I suggest however, that its more a case of the French general's remark about "There is no need to invoke conspiracy when all can be explained by incompetence" sort of thing,because one event on the FB page made me wonder if WC are always a committee operation . . . An offhand remark by one person was suddenly erased, maybe as an afterthought, maybe by orders of a higher up or group decision, who knows? But it seems their 'transparency' is limited in some ways.
Sure, I'm not able to see what is going on and for sure, there are things going on in the background we aren't privy to that are affecting the relaunch. It just seems that WC aren't helping their cause with all the ambiguity and what seems at times to be unstable plans.
However, it's a waiting game and I do have a great deal of patience. ( I'd trade it for USD200 right now though, so I can complete my KoB force :D )
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The basics of what is going on is fine. WC seems to be willing to redesign some stuff on the Nian Jiang, rewriting fluff over time, taking at least some time to attempt to listen. The problem is completely attitude of the response that leads to these responses. I certainly think I have been bitterer than I should have been because I felt some comments and actions were insulting to me or otherwise felt malicious because an attitude of arrogance, we know best, has been put up, rather than conciliatory or thoughtful ones explaining things are still in flux. They have managed to end up in the worst of all possible worlds by having statements that change, and having no definitive blog posts that explain the process, and having several different voices in the mix that claim definitive status.
When we talk about fluff, 1.05 was written by Stuart, it makes sense that WWX would be his starting point for the conversation. However, articulation of how to develop Dystopian Wars was therefore framed around that, and a bigger game with a more entrenched and vocal fangroup saw their background and fluff placed subservient to a smaller, weirder game, whilst the details of that were very badly explained, and we were told that WC doesn't work by committee to do games design, meaning that it was easy to read into that change was being imposed and there was nothing we could do. This now doesn't seem the case, and there is now an attempt to involve stuff. However, WC is unlikely to get the credit because of the way it handled stuff early on, or comments from Rich in another thread which involved mocking criticism.
Now personally I can see how a larger creative process can add to a game, especially with something like DWars that requires a global scale. If WC had come in and said we aren't sure immediately, and not clamped down on the facebook forums, and used them to discuss fluff instead of just floating rules ideas, and asked people what they liked about Spartan instead of just mocking how poor it was, I think things would have been different. A real eye for positive points about they liked about Spartan and wanted to expand about the vision would have been so much better. But I'm no PR expert, this is just my impression.
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I find it hard to disagree with anything you've said there, RuleBritannia :)
What's really interesting is that I see from my Kickstarter news feed, another company called SkirmishGames.com has just started an expansion for their Weird West skirmish, Blackwater Gulch - sorry, their "Western Horror" game based on the "Gangfight" rules they have been doing for a couple of years now. I suppose if this is the Next Big Thing in gaming ( Not just the many games company's idea of what should be the Next Big Thing ), than having the DW/AC lines will be the "point of difference" so loved by marketing. Either way, it's interesting. :)
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There is a constant attitude from WC of deriding Spartan, it's fluff, it's moulds and models so as to justify their actions. It is possible to discuss how you are going to improve things without telling us how bad your predecessor was, especially when taking over fan communities. Similarly, there were some comments discussing how fans weren't doing enough or too few of us hence it's our fault things have to change rather than spending time telling us how things will improve.
I get that change happens, and Spartan failed as a company, but a softer approach, and more concern to not deride the product you are updating would be nice.
*Sorry for the rant, just something that has bugged me for a while about the attitude WC has taken to the fans, fluff and models of Spartan.
No need to apologize especially as you have struck to the heart of my greatest argument; The way WC have been trying to make their mark on the IP not by showing us what they can do ( Well, to some extent ) but by saying what they won't do because Spartan did it and they did everything wrong.
They have been flip-flopping on the miniatures form Spartan for some time, as an example: First, there was no product cast when they took over, which certainly has been verified. Then, they say they have 10 000 master files and stacks of unsorted molds to catalogue. After that, it was that the molds were all useless for producing anything of the old lines. And after that, it was hinting that some of the older designs will be retained, but followed by "Hey, look at the neat and MUCH BETTER stuff we are gonna do!"
Inconsistent story and often contradicted - Though try and prove that on the fora and/or Facebook pages where the WC staff are moderators, and you'll find Orwell at work ( You know? "He who controls the past . . . " :) ) I suggest however, that its more a case of the French general's remark about "There is no need to invoke conspiracy when all can be explained by incompetence" sort of thing,because one event on the FB page made me wonder if WC are always a committee operation . . . An offhand remark by one person was suddenly erased, maybe as an afterthought, maybe by orders of a higher up or group decision, who knows? But it seems their 'transparency' is limited in some ways.
Sure, I'm not able to see what is going on and for sure, there are things going on in the background we aren't privy to that are affecting the relaunch. It just seems that WC aren't helping their cause with all the ambiguity and what seems at times to be unstable plans.
However, it's a waiting game and I do have a great deal of patience. ( I'd trade it for USD200 right now though, so I can complete my KoB force :D )
I have to post as you are posting some questionable inferences. We have not gone back on forth regarding the miniatures. There is a physical reality involved. We picked up the "stuff" from Spartan for want of a better word. It wasn't neatly organised. As it had already been chucked into a lorry randomly and put in an old aircraft hanger. We had to remove it from that location pretty quickly once the purchase had completed. This then made its way to our warehouse and was stored and slowly each item is being assessed. We don't have finished stock. We don't have all masters, we don't have all molds. But that isn't something we could have said day one as there are tens of thousands of items to check and identify. None of the remarks you attribute to us are contradictory to each other, none. Come and visit us and we will show you what we started with. We did not say all the molds were useless, however, it appears we have molds from day 1 of Spartans existence and it is clear by comments in the community that a lot of product shipped with casting issues. We want to eliminate those and therefore we are not just going to pour resin in old molds without testing them. And if new masters and molds are needed for a product, it needs to have a business justification for going to the expense of remastering etc. There is no secret agenda at work just a desire to release a game that has the best chance of success. And our efforts are better spent getting the product released more than a few people will buy. We have told you a few times about the process, it isn't some magical thing that happens overnight. It takes a while as well as the multitude of other issues we need to resolve to get the miniatures back into production. It takes lots of time, effort and money to achieve.
And regarding the attitude towards Spartan there isn't any, we have made some factual statements about the state of things handed to us, none of which is a shock considering the company went into administration after a prolonged decline.
And re the fluff, we decided quite early on that trying to maintain 2 very similar universes was a step too far and so we combined them. The narrative is still being worked on as it takes time. I think that was the right thing to do for all sorts of reasons.
Regarding mocking criticism, please provide some evidence?
We have been open, but there is a small number of you that have been outright hostile to us, from personal attacks to constant criticisms and inferences. That's all up to you but we are reasonable people and we are far more likely to respond positively to civility rather than endless negativity by a small number groups.
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Thanks for stepping in, Rich.
Just a reminder to all of you to keep things civil, and to avoid baseless accusations/recriminations. For the most part, the tone of this thread has been respectful, even among those that disagree with each other, and I appreciate that. However, if things deteriorate too far, I will lock this thread. This is a place to have fun discussions about a game and a hobby we all love, not to create drama ;).
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We definitely drifted off fluff. I am hoping that all this Hex, order, Gaia earth spirit, dark council, alien watchers, and chi vampires either becomes unreliable narrator wildly exaggerating them wild west folks up to mischief or so far in the background it can be ignored for Dystopian wars. It really detracts in feel from the Steampunk shenanigans whilst being more important to the skirmishes of WWX. Whilst not crossing the streams would be lovely, we are where we are, so downplaying them makes more sense, especially as they seem as though should be secretly warring against each other. Also early references to cataclysmic war could do with toning down, so we can at least get a few years of conflict, rebuild up the alliance systems so the power blocs justify moving in troops into different Warzones. If you can manage at least one bloc member each in Asia, Europe and America, it makes it much easier to say that people have been brought over, as in the first world war. Doesn't need to be static or stable, but helps flesh out the setting to have allies in that way in my opinion. I think some time poring over the history books always helps to flesh out a setting, especially with people increasingly aware of global history and the need to be respectful to global cultures even in an alt history or fantasy setting, something which time and effort to sculpt. I would love to see some timeline build ups, and the patience to provide some idea of command structures, something I loved in the 1.5 and 2.0 books.
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Studio Invite accepted, as soon as i can convince the misses to let me out :P, going to Salute might be a stretch as it is.
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Well, I suppose you have clarified a few things, Rich, however at the risk of being labelled a violent lunatic, may I take issue with a couple of your statement, please?
It wasn't neatly organised. As it had already been chucked into a lorry randomly and put in an old aircraft hanger. We had to remove it from that location pretty quickly once the purchase had completed. This then made its way to our warehouse and was stored and slowly each item is being assessed.
That took a while for you to make clear to us as well. Point conceded, though.
We don't have finished stock. We don't have all masters, we don't have all molds. But that isn't something we could have said day one as there are tens of thousands of items to check and identify.
You don't have x, you don't have y, you have ten of thousands of . . . Well, not x and y, so what exactly do you have? Now, there's where I and a lot of others are getting confused, rich my friend. There's no logical link between the sentences. Granted, you clearly have something but it's not "transparent' as to what it is you have. Maybe that's just me, but it would be nice if your statements made that clearer.
Come and visit us and we will show you what we started with.
Like I can afford that :) That sounds hostile to me, along the lines of "If you think you can do better . . .". And it's not making me feel any less unhappy ( NOT [bangry][/b], just unhappy )
however, it appears we have molds from day 1 of Spartans existence and it is clear by comments in the community that a lot of product shipped with casting issues. We want to eliminate those and therefore we are not just going to pour resin in old molds without testing them.
I wish I could convince you that the next sentence here is true, Rich. I understand that many of the molds have reached the point where they are too old to use, or have had problems in the past. I tell you three times, as Lewis Carroll used to have it..
However, I recall the whole RAF/Dream Pod 9 debacle over the "thousands of email complaints over QA/QC" thing, and the way DP9, shall we say, rebuilt that narrative to suit themselves ( As the Post-Modernists say ). RAFM worked hard to correct complaints when they had them, and so did Spartan, but in the RAFM situation they never received them. I have to wonder, knowing as I do the gamer mind and humans in general, how many of the complaints have been made by people who have had these problems legitimately . . . and they have let them fester and grow in their memories into much larger problems than they were at the time? ( Still, that's nothing really to do with Warcradle's handling, it's more a case of Warcradle listening to the disgruntled who rarely are effective witnesses. ).
There is no secret agenda at work just a desire to release a game that has the best chance of success.
Now here's where you seem to be getting hostile again, Rich. Could you please show me at what point did I claim you had a "secret agenda"? I may have said that you had plans you weren't telling us about, and given your concentration on "commercial realities" such maintenance of security around your project is perfectly understandable to me - Even more so, given the sudden rush by several games companies to have a Weird/horror/Lovecraftian/Steampunk Western style game in their inventory. Competition is stiff and , as in the Cold War, espionage and protecting ideas has become entirely proper and vital. I hardly think you've got any "secret agenda", Rich, and if I may be sarcastic for a moment, there are many people who wonder if Warcradle has an "agenda" at all :) As you say however, things take time, and I understand that; It's just that during that time, some effort to keep people abreast of things, in a manner that is not so vague as to generate rumors and be open to interpretation might be needed. I and a lot of others think that while Warcradle havemade efforts in this direction, it has not been all that successful in results. Though I believe it's fixable :) ( Stuart and I have talked about this, and we seem to have reached an agreement there. )
And our efforts are better spent getting the product released more than a few people will buy.
Something we both would like to see happen. Of course, there are a good number of people who are willing to buy the older product when they can, and who do, not a few who are new players hoping to get in before the rush of new releases I believe in at least one case. But as I have asked before, are you certain that your new and revamped approach will bring in new players, and in greater numbers than before? Some re-released game shave done so, and they did it without having a great number of redesigned game items as well - Yes, *sigh* I am talking Battletech, which I am reliably informed is played in many games stores, at conventions and clubs in the US, though I have to concede that these reports also underline how Catalyst Games, like Spartan, seems a bit hit-and-miss with production and distribution :/ yet there are new players coming in, and that's always good for any game: I hope that Warcradle, with it's much-talked about business acumen, will do far better along that side of the system, and I'm waiting for evidence that that will happen.
We have told you a few times about the process, it isn't some magical thing that happens overnight. It takes a while as well as the multitude of other issues we need to resolve to get the miniatures back into production. It takes lots of time, effort and money to achieve.
I tell you three times, I believe all of that. :) Then again, I've seen the managerial approach to things . . . . Well, let's just say it's why I prefer to say 'problems' rather than 'issues'; Problems have solutions, issues have binders, staples and constantly pile up. :D
Anyway, i apologize for any thread hijacking or hostility I have directed at anyone . . . Given the number of Facebook friend request I have had from Warcradle staff, I am surprised to learn that they find me such an angry and vicious individual :) It might be the way I sound when I type, so I assure everyone that I bear no ill will to Warcradle as a company or its individual members as people. ( I do reserve the right to say if I don't like something, which might be considered hostile in this day and age, perhaps? :/)
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I don’t think Rich was hostile; defensive yes but not hostile.
Regarding the fluff changes: on one hand owning the ip allows WC to do as they please without having to explain themselves. But on the other in dealing with customers they must also sell themselves and their rationale; why they should be preferred over other products. There hasn’t been much of why it will be better and plenty of because we could.
Guess I will wait for the big reveal.
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I don’t think Rich was hostile; defensive yes but not hostile.
Regarding the fluff changes: on one hand owning the ip allows WC to do as they please without having to explain themselves. But on the other in dealing with customers they must also sell themselves and their rationale; why they should be preferred over other products. There hasn’t been much of why it will be better and plenty of because we could.
Guess I will wait for the big reveal.
I have seen snarkier comments, but yes the big thing our conversation was building towards was looking for positive reasons to get on board with the WC steampunk madness rather than negative comments about Spartan. Just saying everything needs to be remastered without explaining its because of mould problems makes it sound like a denigration of the models we collected and have spent so much time painting. Just saying its a good business decision to make the game more fantasy doesn't tell me its a good thing, only a popular thing, and that WC puts profits over creative vision. Because fans haven't received a positive message and instead only had things we liked derided we unfortunately find it easy to take a negative vision of decisions made.
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Let’s keep this thread on fluff discussions. I’ve split off the mold discussion into its own thread.
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I don’t think Rich was hostile; defensive yes but not hostile.
Regarding the fluff changes: on one hand owning the ip allows WC to do as they please without having to explain themselves. But on the other in dealing with customers they must also sell themselves and their rationale; why they should be preferred over other products. There hasn’t been much of why it will be better and plenty of because we could.
Guess I will wait for the big reveal.
I have seen snarkier comments, but yes the big thing our conversation was building towards was looking for positive reasons to get on board with the WC steampunk madness rather than negative comments about Spartan. Just saying everything needs to be remastered without explaining its because of mould problems makes it sound like a denigration of the models we collected and have spent so much time painting. Just saying its a good business decision to make the game more fantasy doesn't tell me its a good thing, only a popular thing, and that WC puts profits over creative vision. Because fans haven't received a positive message and instead only had things we liked derided we unfortunately find it easy to take a negative vision of decisions made.
I suppose that's pretty much correct. I'm to blame for the distraction, and I only did so to show how WC's announcements tend to mislead on that topic, and thus on others. I apologies for that Ruckdog and to everyone else .
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WC have released a new version of 2.5 rulebook minus the fluff, although not yet deleted the fluff from the Spartan Website. I do hope the fluff document is preserved and available as a separate document so that the Sturginium age isn't removed entirely, but available as a separate document. Why not provide download versions of the old campaign books too? I liked the suggestion of alt universes, preserving at least some of the heritage.
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WC have released a new version of 2.5 rulebook minus the fluff, although not yet deleted the fluff from the Spartan Website. I do hope the fluff document is preserved and available as a separate document so that the Sturginium age isn't removed entirely, but available as a separate document. Why not provide download versions of the old campaign books too? I liked the suggestion of alt universes, preserving at least some of the heritage.
I literally cannot see why this isn't a reasonable and fairly cheap thing to do.
However, i suspect it would be answered by a long tirade about how hard such an undertaking would be and who we are are being belligerent and unsympathetic about the difficulties involved going by past experience. :)
Still, I think electronic copies do exist on the web, notably here and on some Facebook files areas too, so i don't think they'd be utterly lost. :)And if anyone asks, say it's a divergent timeline caused by an unfortunate accident with a Covenant Telemachus Time Orb :D