Author Topic: To Robot or not to Robot?  (Read 2441 times)

Dakkar

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To Robot or not to Robot?
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:22:55 pm »
With the info that the DW ground combat will be a different game, do folks feel like there's any place for walking robots in the Naval game? (Rules and niftiness aside)

I love my Metzgers, but I always feel weird fielding the waterline shoulders-up base. Like anything that big or bigger on the water should just be a boat or airship, and walkers should only be in shallow water/land conflicts.

I mean, if I'm up to my shoulders in the ocean, and there's a riptide, I'm not stable enough to fire a gun. A robot should be little different - it masses more, but then so does the water and force of current pushing on it.
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Stephan

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 01:43:40 pm »
They're just VERY good at treading water.  :)

Covertwalrus

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 07:55:25 pm »

 That's a very good question, and one reason why the whole fuss over the split of Armored Clash and the fluff has come up - any answer you have will probably involve those two factors. Do you *need* massive amphibious armor in a world of minor ocean clashes and a single flashpoint continent, for instance?

 I agree with you about how the Metzger would have stability problems as a marine weapon platform, but I can see two of the robots still having a use in the naval game, though, the KoB Windsor Mobile Fortress, which can be seen as a self-deploying coastal defense point. And the CoA Coeus, because to all intents and purposes it is an automated hunter-killer area protection device. ( Still interested in the "Guided rockets" being mounted on another vessel though :) ) Still YMMV

markymark1970

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 12:02:11 am »
Two thoughts on this:

Spartan - If we've figured out how to control very local weather, shoot lightning from cannons and nullify gravity to a degree, can one not assume that sturginium-enhanced gyroscopes can easily handle stability issues?
Warcradle - Advanced alien gyroscopes, mystical wormholes, cosmic cubes and Infinity Stones that "right" the robots so that they can unleash their fury!

Covertwalrus

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 06:47:14 am »
Two thoughts on this:

Spartan - If we've figured out how to control very local weather, shoot lightning from cannons and nullify gravity to a degree, can one not assume that sturginium-enhanced gyroscopes can easily handle stability issues?
Warcradle - Advanced alien gyroscopes, mystical wormholes, cosmic cubes and Infinity Stones that "right" the robots so that they can unleash their fury!

 ;D
 Hold on, that probably is just the way it might go . . .  ???

CDR-G

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 08:06:50 pm »
Fun to think about.
Metzgers have Aquatic Assault, They can act as if submerged it seems. So the parts that need to be airtight are airtight. The Water lined version is just a representation to me. It could be in more or less depth of water than shown. It gets too complicated to have them go submerged, so a happy medium is reached. Of all the things contrary to science in DW, this doesn't make my RADAR.

Wing-lift aircraft with wing based control surfaces have momentum, large initial movements and bigger turn limits than dirigible based ACs. That is the reverse of what it should be I think.

Covertwalrus

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 10:30:36 pm »
Quote
Wing-lift aircraft with wing based control surfaces have momentum, large initial movements and bigger turn limits than dirigible based ACs. That is the reverse of what it should be I think.

 In some cases, yes. Then again it comes down to design; A dirigible often has multiple engines on several points of the hull,an if those engine's thrusts can be directed for additional steering or "vectored", then you can get a blimp-like craft to spin on its vertical axis. That is, of course, given the proper co-ordination of control.

 A winged flyer is limited by the strength of structure and the need to keep moving forward to continue to generate lift, so in some cases the turns are going to be bigger. Again, it depends on design.

 Let's not even start on combined rotor-lift and gravity-resist craft like certain Britannian designs, shall we? :D

gabbi

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2018, 11:00:27 am »
I don't care if it makes sense. I call for the Rule of Cool here. The waterlined Metzger is the model that single-handedly drew me in the game. I owned a couple way before even considering start playing. I usually keep fielding one even if point-wise I could buy something more efficient. Just because it's a big stomping robot treading the sea floor to punch opponents' ships.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:04:26 am by gabbi »

markymark1970

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2018, 08:29:33 pm »
I don't care if it makes sense. I call for the Rule of Cool here. The waterlined Metzger is the model that single-handedly drew me in the game. I owned a couple way before even considering start playing. I usually keep fielding one even if point-wise I could buy something more efficient. Just because it's a big stomping robot treading the sea floor to punch opponents' ships.

Cool models do rule!

Dakkar

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2018, 10:23:33 pm »
Just because it's a big stomping robot treading the sea floor to punch opponents' ships.

Well when you put it THAT way...
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CDR-G

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 10:35:32 pm »
 I
Quote
n some cases, yes. Then again it comes down to design; A dirigible often has multiple engines on several points of the hull,an if those engine's thrusts can be directed for additional steering or "vectored", then you can get a blimp-like craft to spin on its vertical axis. That is, of course, given the proper co-ordination of control.

 A winged flyer is limited by the strength of structure and the need to keep moving forward to continue to generate lift, so in some cases the turns are going to be bigger. Again, it depends on design.

 Let's not even start on combined rotor-lift and gravity-resist craft like certain Britannian designs, shall we? :
D

I see your point on design. But, it does seem odd that a design that would require strength of structure consistently seems to lack a quality that is integral to its whole purpose. Blimps are just "better" than planes? Also the orientation of a dirigible and/or its engines doesn't change it direction of travel until its thrust overcomes it MOMENTMUM. Also, It just seems wrong.

Covertwalrus

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Re: To Robot or not to Robot?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2018, 02:35:10 am »

I see your point on design. But, it does seem odd that a design that would require strength of structure consistently seems to lack a quality that is integral to its whole purpose. Blimps are just "better" than planes? Also the orientation of a dirigible and/or its engines doesn't change it direction of travel until its thrust overcomes it MOMENTMUM. Also, It just seems wrong.

 Well, my aerodynamics and physics aren't all that great ( I'm a biologist by training), nevertheless the problem with fixed-wing aircraft over dirigibles and blimps ( Two very different beasts, of course ) is that a winged flyer needs power to both create lift and move forward; It's ability to turn requires less power as simple control surfaces moving in the airflow of its forward motion create that ability at very little extra cost in terms of power, but the power to keep it in the air needs to be constant and applied for forward motion only.
 In a static lift system like a dirigible ( Or blimp, but since a blimp is a gasbag with no real internal or external structure, it's clearly not the sort of thing being used here ), no power is used to keep the vehicle in the air, so all of its power can be used in propulsion and/or steering and if applied to steering only. that would include overcoming momentum, which given that it has a simply lower inertia than say an ocean-going vessel of the same size, the relative power-to-mass ratio can be better.  The steering surfaces aren't as effective since the craft isn't moving quickly most of the time, so one has to rely on the direct steering by the engines, in a sort of vectored thrust, in order to steer, however that is a more effective form of maneuver.

 Mind you, all this gets away from the robot argument. To return to that, I'll just point out the rationale used for Mecha in Battletech: While a planetary force of many tanks carrying small weapons could beat a Mech in straight fight, the logistics of moving a large enough force of such tanks through space and two gravity wells was much more expensive than moving a few Mecha carrying larger weapons. This means that a raiding party of Mecha dropped on a  planetary surface could hit a target and return to a dropship while still being able to fend off a tank-only force, if they weren't caught by too many tanks. A version of the "Economy Of Scale" model, if you will.
 i imagine the same can be said with most of the DW robots as well; Carrying huge weapons in single platforms makes for a single target capable of dealing with more than its own mass of smaller, cheaper vehicles and/or ships. Eventually, the force opposing such robot platforms would either turn out larger and larger numbers of those small craft against them in an attempt to overwhelm them ( Thinking the GEV tactic in OGRE here too :) ), or create vessels that are economical yet with heavier weapons - Which, when you look at such fleets as the Raj assault carrier, the Russian Coalition Pakhtusov and the Prussians and their railway gun-equipped cruiser, that latter tactic seemed to be coming up.