Man Battlestations Forum
Warcradle Naval Games => Dystopian Wars => Topic started by: Covertwalrus on August 07, 2020, 10:51:32 pm
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I will confess I don't like the idea of plastics. Especially multi-part hulls, because frankly, I know I'm not gonna be able to assemble them all square and even and they will look awful unless I fill the hulls with some kind of filler in the hollow.
Yeah, I'm a resin fan. And living in acountry with a definite "Green" bias, I'm not sure plastics are going to be around much longer . . .
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I quite like the Russians as looking less gothic and OTT and closer to Spartan's version, though the turrets could be less hi-tech. The plastics will be a faff for people like me who are less skilled at modelling, and I dislike that they mix different classes on the same sprue making it harder for those seeking to collect a certain style of force, but that may just be a starter box thing.
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I will confess I don't like the idea of plastics. Especially multi-part hulls, because frankly, I know I'm not gonna be able to assemble them all square and even and they will look awful unless I fill the hulls with some kind of filler in the hollow.
Yeah, I'm a resin fan. And living in acountry with a definite "Green" bias, I'm not sure plastics are going to be around much longer . . .
Looking at the sprue, I don't think it will be quite as bad as you are fearing it will be; it looks like the hull sides will key in with the deck pieces, which I imagine will help everything lock in squarely. I also don't think seams will be too bad, as it looks like WC has designed these fairly smartly by placing the seams along natural "breaks" in the model, such as the rivet lines on the sides of the hull. Honestly, coming from a background of building a fair number of plastic wargaming minis from a number of manufacturers (GW, Battlefront, PSC), these look pretty well engineered and easy to assemble to me.
I quite like the Russians as looking less gothic and OTT and closer to Spartan's version, though the turrets could be less hi-tech. The plastics will be a faff for people like me who are less skilled at modelling, and I dislike that they mix different classes on the same sprue making it harder for those seeking to collect a certain style of force, but that may just be a starter box thing.
I suspect that these will be the standard sprues going forward. Not sure what you mean about how the sprue options make it harder to collect a certain force...I would think it would make it easier? Instead of having to track down one specific box for a specialist ship, you can just buy the standard sprue and make what you need.
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Ruckdog, I am referring to the fact that there is a mix of small and medium ships, and looks like only one kind of small ships bundled with the differing choices of mediums.
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Ruckdog, I am referring to the fact that there is a mix of small and medium ships, and looks like only one kind of small ships bundled with the differing choices of mediums.
Ah, I see where you are going with that, I think. Are you saying that if you wanted a medium-heavy force, you'd wind up with too many cruisers, and vice versa? Could be an issue...we will have to see I suppose. There might be some moderating factors, though:
1. It's possible that this might be mitigated somewhat by the list building requirements that end up in the final rules (this was never clearly defined during the Beta); IE, you need to take smalls and mediums in some proportion, and the sprues dovetail with that.
2. The sprues might be inexpensive enough that it's not a major issue to get enough ships for what you are wanting to build. The extras could then be used for all manor of things (trade, sell, bits for terrain, etc).
I also get the point about there being only a single type of frigate on the sprue, but then again we have to remember that in terms of the model range WC is essentially starting back at square 1. I wouldn't be surprised to see other types of small ships from WC (maybe in plastic, but I suspect resin is more likely), but I wouldn't expect it real soon. It took Spartan a solid 7-8 months from the initial launch of DW to roll out additional classes of small ships for the first 4 factions, after all.
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Here is what I was able to summarize from the post:
8/7/20: Warcradle posted Studio Diary #29 (https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-29), indicating the following:
- The first product launched will be the 2-player starter set, Hunt for the Prometheus (Covenant vs. Russians)
- The Hunt for the Prometheus (HftP) will be launched "towards the end of this year." (I assume this means Q4 2020)
- The "vast majority" of the miniatures in the HftP box will be plastic.
- Each sprue has enough parts to make one of several different types of cruiser-sized ship, and two frigates.
- Additional fleets, the "gubbins box" will follow "shortly" after the 2-player set. (From FB discussion on the announcement)
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Picture of the sprue from the WC Blog:
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Russian-Sprue.jpg)
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I do wonder what has happened to the first two fleet that were supposedly designed in resin and were going to be released first, the Brits and the Yanks. Redesign in plastic?
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I do wonder what has happened to the first two fleet that were supposedly designed in resin and were going to be released first, the Brits and the Yanks. Redesign in plastic?
That's what I would guess, based on the discussion in the first paragraph of Diary 29. Remains to be seen how much of them have actually been re-designed, or if its just a translation of the previously shown designs into plastic. I'm quite curious to see just how rapidly the next wave of releases follows the box set launch!
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Looks like Launch will be next year according to the new blog, since we will get images of the new Covenant sprues before the end of the year and nothing else. The Plastics detail isn't a match with Spartan's resin. https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-34
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Looks like Launch will be next year according to the new blog, since we will get images of the new Covenant sprues before the end of the year and nothing else. The Plastics detail isn't a match with Spartan's resin. https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-34
Yep, looks like a bit more of a delay sadly.
Not sure I agree with you on the detail; to me, it looks just as good, if not better, as the old resin. However, I can see how you can get that impression if you are looking at pics like this one:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5791f4d720099efc0f76dd06/1602175706390-VRBNVZSWWLUXUY8XNWZ1/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kBoFInJOU2LsEjZ9C7rIQzBZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIHeIXPOsSseuyChxqEdXEsAg6fw0OHjeEW19gPCHSYJAKMshLAGzx4R3EDFOm1kBS/Cruiser.jpg?format=500w)
And seeing the blurriness near the bow. That seems like a photography issue rather than a lack of sharpness on the model; those parts look razor-sharp on the pic of the whole sprue.
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That is fair, might be the picture, but looks a little like warlords smooth plastic. I think the mortar even on the sprue looks a little crude.
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The turrets and generators look like the details on them are a bit soft. The larger pieces all look good though. Overall they look good but they will not have the same level of detail that resin did. Its a tradeoff you make to get the customisation options of a plastic model
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Someoen asked Stuart for a comparison of sizes for these. He responded swiftly and graciously with this -
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_10_10_20_1_41_06.jpeg)
And later, added this, with the comment that pre-orders would be forthcoming.
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_10_10_20_1_41_52.jpeg)
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Those are much better photos. Not sure why they went with the ones in the blog post
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It always amazes me that for a company focused a lot more on promotional material how bad Warcradle are at PR. If you had The starter set ready within a month or two why would you go with blurry shots of models?
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Took another look at that starter set preview image:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/121217251_1049578602155986_130715816120822525_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=3aHZL4UNjQcAX-8oc7h&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=94d72e56f0616fdf4831cf68c58184d6&oe=5FBC0B6E)
Parsing that list, it seems like there will indeed be enough key components (such as the V&V card decks) to allow two players to fully play the game out of the box.
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Parsing that list, it seems like there will indeed be enough key components (such as the V&V card decks) to allow two players to fully play the game out of the box.
Thta's true, as a box set it's pretty comprehensive. More like the demonstration box set that Spartan put out ( CoA and FSA wasn't it? ). But can they keep up the clever selections for such boxes as they go on?
Their track record with WWX from my understanding suggests maybe not.
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The little disclaimer notes that models aren't finalised yet, and a mix of plastic and resin. Is it possible the boats are resin, hence why they are shown as one class of vessel rather than modular? Also recently caught up with a promotional video promoting this very boxed set 11 months ago. Warcradle are really competing with the top procrastinators these days.
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The little disclaimer notes that models aren't finalised yet, and a mix of plastic and resin. Is it possible the boats are resin, hence why they are shown as one class of vessel rather than modular? Also recently caught up with a promotional video promoting this very boxed set 11 months ago. Warcradle are really competing with the top procrastinators these days.
From discussions I've had with Stuart, the "mix of plastic and resin" is a reference to the fact that the battleships will be resin, while the cruisers and frigates are plastic. He also stated that the resin battleship hulls are also being designed to accept the plastic turrets and generators from the cruiser/frigate sprue, similar to how some of the old BFG battleships did it, where the otherwise metal models accepted the various weapons bits from the plastic cruiser sprues.
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From discussions I've had with Stuart, the "mix of plastic and resin" is a reference to the fact that the battleships will be resin, while the cruisers and frigates are plastic. He also stated that the resin battleship hulls are also being designed to accept the plastic turrets and generators from the cruiser/frigate sprue, similar to how some of the old BFG battleships did it, where the otherwise metal models accepted the various weapons bits from the plastic cruiser sprues.
That is interesting, especially as the box only refers to one class each for the frigates and cruisers, and the differing numbers of both in the box outline.
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That is interesting, especially as the box only refers to one class each for the frigates and cruisers, and the differing numbers of both in the box outline.
Hence the frequent use of the word "Unfinalised". It seems odd that important details like that are open and undecided, whne the release date ( Or at least the last given date ) is so close. But hey, what do i know? :)
And how hard is it to get a resin cast to have a certain size of mounting for a turret, anyway?
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We just had WC reveal the dates for November releases so unless the boxed set is revealed shortly for a beginning of December release I think its going to 2021.
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Yeah, I think the slide to 2021 is more or less official. I've seen that being put out by WC reps on FB. I haven't seen an official blog post or news release about it yet.
It seems odd that important details like that are open and undecided, whne the release date ( Or at least the last given date ) is so close. But hey, what do i know? :)
I'm with you there. I would have thought that we'd see detailed box art and set listings for at least the first 3 months worth of releases by now. If you look at the info flow from Warlord and Mantic regarding Victory at Sea and Kings of War: Armada respectively, the relative paucity of information coming from WC is a bit...concerning.
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I'm with you there. I would have thought that we'd see detailed box art and set listings for at least the first 3 months worth of releases by now. If you look at the info flow from Warlord and Mantic regarding Victory at Sea and Kings of War: Armada respectively, the relative paucity of information coming from WC is a bit...concerning.
WArcradle do have communications issues for sure; Mind you, Stuart has pretty much set in stone that, as with Wayland Games itself, there are never going to be December releases/specials. So, as you say first half of 2021.
But also as you say, odd that there aren't any other releases planned or at least publically shown for other factions ( Despite lots of artwork for the Brits. )
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Agreed with both of you. The plastic reveal for the Russian Coalition said expect the plastics for the covenant to be done before the end of the year, Stuart's belief the boxed set was ready seems wildly optimistic. I don't think the official Dystopian Wars (new) facebook page has posted in half a year.
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So some interesting rumours of 'influencers' being invited to receive new sprues and a new teaser on facebook. Release has obviously not happened before Christmas, so we remain in the dark about that, but if the sprues are being sent out that suggests things can't be too far off.
The artwork is perfectly cromulent, I like what the artist has done, apart from making the smoke plumes a bit fiery. The KoB designs sit a bit uncanny valley for me, with the basic chassis of the model looking like Spartan, the ornamentation like Pugin high on opium, the flak rockets like something from supreme commander and the jet powered spitfires like a diselpunk delight, but none of it really gelling for me. Which is a pity.
(https://i.redd.it/2kz4s0yn9r361.jpg)
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You could replace the Weyland copyright with Privateer Press 2006 and I'd believe it. It's kinda soulless.
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Have to admit, the KoB or Crown have come off worst in the redesigns stakes. The Russian Coalition certainly has been affected least, and it's all Curates Egg with the Covenant.
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So influencers' sprues arrived today. https://www.instagram.com/p/CIng2ovnoYF/
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WC has also posted the assembly instructions:
https://www.dystopianwars.co.uk/building-instructions
Looks like the sprue can build 1 frigate and one of 4 different cruiser variants:
Heavy
Light
Fast
Monitor
Of course it is tough to say without having the physical article in my hands, but assembly on these looks pretty straightforward.
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So one sprue makes basically two models? And you need at least three of each for a squadron?
That means you need at least three sprues for two full squadrons, leaving over a mass of parts for units you can't make due to one part (The deck of the cruiser, it appears) being supplied only ONCE per sprue.
That . . . Does not sound economical at all for customers.
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Depends on the cost of the sprue I suppose.
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Hard to say on the economics part, since we haven't seen pricing yet. I suspect though that prices will be fairly competitive with other plastic minis. For example, TTG is getting 20GBP for a pack of two UCM cruiser sprues:
https://ttcombat.com/collections/dropfleet-commander/products/ucm-cruiser-box
So, I wouldn't be surprised to see a pack of two of these sprues going for 15GBP +/- 5GBP.
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So we have the reveal on the turrets so far. The heavy gun turrets that look like railguns, the rocket launcher that looks like a mortar, and 'tri-railgun'. The turrets seem the weakest links so far in these models. (https://i.redd.it/my83et7n45561.png)
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What I dislike are the proportions on the vessels. Especially between the length of the hull snd the size of the superstructure. Its not too bad on the larger vessels but the frigates look like chibi models
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What I dislike are the proportions on the vessels. Especially between the length of the hull and the size of the superstructure. Its not too bad on the larger vessels but the frigates look like chibi models
That's fair. It's certainly ore pronounced that the Spartan Russians. But then I know some people who love the new frigates because they aren't round like the old ones.
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So the starter set has been revealed. I would like a closer look at the Covenant plastics, because I find the weird hood sections at the back off putting, and I'd like to know the weapons systems. https://trade.warcradle.com/dystopian-wars-hunt-for-the-prometheus-english-dwa990005.html?
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So the starter set has been revealed. I would like a closer look at the Covenant plastics, because I find the weird hood sections at the back off putting, and I'd like to know the weapons systems. https://trade.warcradle.com/dystopian-wars-hunt-for-the-prometheus-english-dwa990005.html?fbclid=IwAR1iPmMGJkUYp_1VskJ5LMWBREquwAvTn7epIReTacjRV4RgXp8s80rDZ1M
Just so you know, that fbclid at the end of the URL is a Facebook tracking ID. Since so many people block ad trackers in their browser, Facebook started adding these to URLs as an additional way to track people.
You should do everyone a favour and remove them from URLs you post online
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Rule Britannia, you wish is my command -
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_48_40.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_49_14.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_49_51.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_50_25.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_51_05.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_51_36.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_52_05.jpeg)
Hope that helps!
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MAJOR updates to the Dystopian Wars website went up today!
Significant items include:
-Pre-order link for the 2-player starter set: https://www.waylandgames.co.uk/dystopian-wars/80437-dystopian-wars-hunt-for-the-prometheus-english
-5 pages of general background info on the Dystopian world: https://www.dystopianwars.com/assets/global/PDF/DW-The-Dystopian-Age.pdf
-Faction background documents for each of the major factions. Each document ranges from 8 to 16 pages (!): https://www.dystopianwars.com/media
At long last, it looks like the launch of 3.0 is finally materializing!
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I got my FLGS to order in a starter set for me. Hope it doesn't take too long to get here
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Some of that fluff is a bit yikes. The Ottoman empire rooting out minorities via religious fanatics is not.... great. The Arabian nights themes used are also just a bit odd, and don't really fit the steampunk vibes, while the decadent dissolute sultan and the evil vizier scheming with organised crime is also just a bit cliche. The obsession with purity of blood and East Asian can only be ruled by despots is also... not great, while the mystical dream BS also offends my steampunk sensibility. Its all perfectly cromulent fluff, but the constant refrain of dark forces and mystical nonsense is not my idea of Victorian Sci-fi, and just a bit grimdark.
The other bit that doesn't make much sense is the idea that there is no war. The Japanese blow up Singapore and everybody just leaves vowing revenge? The first time the US and the Pan-Asian faction make contact is when the combined might of East Asia invades the Caribbean? Also the idea that you are sending a battleship on a stealth mission for a shadowy patron rather than the government doesn't make vast amounts of sense. How do governments keep covering up all these naval armadas going missing? I think the game should be push for total absurdity based on this, with your mission being to bring back the last Dodo for Queen Victoria's birthday etc.
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Its all perfectly cromulent fluff, but the constant refrain of dark forces and mystical nonsense is not my idea of Victorian Sci-fi, and just a bit grimdark
I think this is to make it fit into the background for Wild West Exodus
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Its all perfectly cromulent fluff, but the constant refrain of dark forces and mystical nonsense is not my idea of Victorian Sci-fi, and just a bit grimdark
I think this is to make it fit into the background for Wild West Exodus
The problem is that what works for the skirmish game WWX, where a gang of ten people fighting for resources is a skirmish, doesn't naturally fit a game with battlefleets of twenty or so warships, where the loss of that fleet is a major event, and would be the commencement of sustained armed conflict.
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(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_48_40.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_49_51.jpeg)
Okay tier
Too many random lumps.
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_50_25.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_51_05.jpeg)
Meh tier
Plutarch but worse.
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_49_14.jpeg)
Bad tier
"Just whack a drone launcher on it"
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_51_36.jpeg)
(http://www.manbattlestations.com/forum/gallery/3578_17_12_20_7_52_05.jpeg)
Straight garbo tier
Looks like someone kitbashed a boat from warmachine reject parts.
It looks like they're not even trying with the fine detail on most of them- aren't those meant to be pistons behind the A turret on the cruiser? A lot of the angles seem totally random, too- the prow on those cruisers looks a total mess.
Actually, the longer I look the more I dislike these. Why do the turrets look like someone tried to make a CoA e-turret out of marshmallows?
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There is a hint of an interesting idea with the Covenant having armour that come round and surround them for diving and things, but as things stand they look more cartoonish. The Whale Cruelty battleship is not pleasant.
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The problem is that what works for the skirmish game WWX, where a gang of ten people fighting for resources is a skirmish, doesn't naturally fit a game with battlefleets of twenty or so warships, where the loss of that fleet is a major event, and would be the commencement of sustained armed conflict.
I'm not saying that it works, I'm just explaining why they did it
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Backing up slightly, I must say I'm not horrified utterly by the Covenant Cruisers and Frigates: Yes, one cruiser option seems pretty odd but not dreadfully so, the frigates could work as heavy frigates, but oh, dear . . . those battleships.
What is really wanging my chung about those are that the artwork for these looked much better than the result; True, the bridge was always a 1960s plastic saucer house disaster, but at least it had some style in the hull. This chunky look really doesn't work; And it's clear from the Russian Commonwealth ships that they can recapture the earlier design form of Spartan's work, even if they seem to have some kind of loathing for the deceased in general.
I'm not even going to talk much about the fluff. It's exactly as I expected though, given the Thatcherite post-modernist GW mindset of the company; Their Dystopian Age is a crapsack world full of inherent human corruption made worse by Sturginium's powers, while Spartan's Sturginium Age was a positive world climbing to toward Utopia falling into the temptation of Sturginium rather than its promise.
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I'm not even going to talk much about the fluff. It's exactly as I expected though, given the Thatcherite post-modernist GW mindset of the company; Their Dystopian Age is a crapsack world full of inherent human corruption made worse by Sturginium's powers, while Spartan's Sturginium Age was a positive world climbing to toward Utopia falling into the temptation of Sturginium rather than its promise.
I think for me the fluff has some big problems that emerge from coming awkwardly shoving DWars into the WWX setting
1. The idea of what conflict means I've discussed above with Zac, but at a basic level you don't carry out a secret skirmish war between competing powerful men and women with with toy battleships. Battleships, and battle fleets are major investments and require the infrastructure of a state. Even Spartan's mercenary companies were pushing it until they fleshed out the Italian and covenant fluff. They aren't something that carry out covert ops.
2. The dark cynicism of plots and machinations again doesn't fit a wargame like this. You can talk about unrest at court but I would want to hear more about the naval structures and areas of conflict, not that prince Zog is full of alien brain slugs and Princess Elsa's ice powers are part of a conspiracy by the omniscient council of vagueness.
3. The approach to non-western powers is really unpleasant, just the worst. I get it with gang leaders in the old West, but treating foreign princes as either magical demi-gods powered by nonsensium or senile idiots being manipulated is orientalist nonsense and dehumanising, and even worse doesn't fit the nations they are discussing. The whole Celestian empire and Latin alliance concrete landmass blocs of nations removes the potential for conflict between traditionally belligerent nations and removes agency from historically independent peoples, and is just lazy.
4. Spend some time telling me about how the fleets and commanders operate. Mention some commanders.
5. Why isn't there a war? The Japanese blew up Singapore! You can't just hide that under a rug.
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Latest from Warcradle.
Seems like it's coal in the stocking for the Prussian players, but nevertheless thought I'd keep you informed
https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-37
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Latest from Warcradle.
Seems like it's coal in the stocking for the Prussian players, but nevertheless thought I'd keep you informed
https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-37
Coal? Not at all! I know the new designs aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, but they look good to me. I think it’s great news that we’re getting them as one of the first fleet sets to be released TBH ;)
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In isolation each Prussian ship isn't terrible (except those turrets that are just nonsensical), but as a whole, they look awful- it's the same ship scaled up/down! Also dislike how they took a cool one-off concept from the Spartan days and just said "all prussian ships are that now".
As for coal in the stocking, the supposed Italian ships posted on the facebook page really are godawful.
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They really seem to lack detail. They are all very smooth except for the weapons. If you look at the art on the box you can see where they planned for rivets and other details at the front of the ship that somehow didn't make it into the plastic models.
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They really seem to lack detail. They are all very smooth except for the weapons. If you look at the art on the box you can see where they planned for rivets and other details at the front of the ship that somehow didn't make it into the plastic models.
I can see where you are coming from on that. There does seem to be a lot less riviety goodness on the newer models. It seems WC is leaning into the generally sleeker and cleaner lines the Prussians have always featured. I have to say though, it didn't jump out at me as too noticeable.
In isolation each Prussian ship isn't terrible (except those turrets that are just nonsensical), but as a whole, they look awful- it's the same ship scaled up/down! Also dislike how they took a cool one-off concept from the Spartan days and just said "all prussian ships are that now".
Since I like trains and the Prussians, this is sort of a chocolate and peanut butter combination for me; I'm actually sort of excited they took this feature from the old monitor and ran with it 8)
As for coal in the stocking, the supposed Italian ships posted on the facebook page really are godawful.
Are you referring to these?
(https://scontent.find2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132963447_3259929767452469_8695462360748696330_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=7dzLYMAK1aMAX990D0u&_nc_ht=scontent.find2-1.fna&oh=eefa1546f542a21098a392e731c51f9f&oe=600D6841)
I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.
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I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.
If they turn out anything like the CoA whale ship, poorly.
I dislike that they got rid of the elegant hullform and subtle artistic details like the greek pillars and arched windows, the stacked turrets inspired by the USS Kearsarge (The exact sort of real world pre-dreadnought lunacy that made DW great)- and replaced it with a pile of riveted scrap.
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I'm going to say something somewhat out of character. I don't hate the Italians. As long as they actually are the greeks. Just as the Ottoman models, which are clearly actually Raj models. With that labelling issue sorted Warcradle may have done something alright, although those command decks could use more character and less genericness.
The Warcradle Prussians have always been a sore point to me. The Prussians seemed to be a pretty popular fleet, and such a radical overhaul is just a dick move. I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan, but it remains a dick move and I hope one they eventually apologise for as a high handed and stupid dick move. The result is something that looks more at home leading the Fire Nation to victory. That is perfectly cromulent but ironically loses the appeal of the near diselpunk advanced sleekness of the Prussians as a contrast to the steampunk weirdness around them. It doesn't do anything for me, and the strategic need for a logistics train at sea is just silly. It crosses my personal threshold for things that are cool and makes sense but are very silly to just very silly in a way Spartan rarely managed outside of Dreadbots. The battleship models have a couple of versions that make sense, but having rear and fore facing fixed cannons is very stupid and I hope whoever allowed that to be a thing feels very silly. I'm sorry to rant, I just feel the Prussians exemplify the worst impulses of a design team that doesn't get and doesn't care for Dystopian Wars as a concept.
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I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan...
At this point I am unsure why they even purchased Spartan Games. They aren't producing any of the old models, they rewrote the background and they are doing their own designs.
The game they are presenting now is almost entirely unique. Why even use the old name?
It strikes me that they could have produced this entire game and range of minis on their own without purchasing Spartan
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I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan...
At this point I am unsure why they even purchased Spartan Games. They aren't producing any of the old models, they rewrote the background and they are doing their own designs.
The game they are presenting now is almost entirely unique. Why even use the old name?
It strikes me that they could have produced this entire game and range of minis on their own without purchasing Spartan
Well to be fair certain fleets are borrowing very heavily from the Spartan look like the Russians, Covenant, and French, and certain fleets are referencing Spartan ships but can feel very uncanny valley like the British, Chinese, Japanese, Ottomans (from the British Raj). Only the Prussians are just completely incompatible weirdness, although the Americans are close.
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I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.
They aren't horrible, and as people have been saying *in another place* ( Love that phrase from the British House of Lords, as they consider it "Bad form" to mention the House Of Commons), the concept looks more like the Greeks being inspired by the Athenian period. All in all, it may be the best fleet, bar the Russians we have seen yet from Warcradle.
I dislike that they got rid of the elegant hullform and subtle artistic details like the Greek pillars and arched windows, the stacked turrets inspired by the USS Kearsarge (The exact sort of real world pre-dreadnought lunacy that made DW great)- and replaced it with a pile of riveted scrap.
Oh yes, I don't care who you are, that Classical Empire meets WW2 Italian Navy look just worked so well. There are a couple small nods to the old designs here, cranes and triple exhaust stacks, but otherwise they are just so pedestrian. And the Kearsage-style turrets were so unique in the whole game.
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Well, to be fair it makes a bit of sense that the Italians use the ram, as the ram devastated their fleet at the Battle of Lissa in 1866, and made naval designers of the period question if the steam ram was the way forward in ship design!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_(1866)
So, if the Italians took the wrong idea from Lissa then all their ships must HAVE rams!
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One thing about previous versions of D-wars is that relatively useless nature of escorts in the game. They pretty much were on the table to show how powerful larger ships were by being sunk all the time. Sure they were fast, but that often times just meant they got sunk quicker!
As I look at this Beta rules, I am not seeing much that makes escorts less of a points sink than in previous editions. Am I missing something?
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You can pry my destroyers and corvettes from my cold dead hands, they were great in DW 2.0.
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One thing about previous versions of D-wars is that relatively useless nature of escorts in the game. They pretty much were on the table to show how powerful larger ships were by being sunk all the time. Sure they were fast, but that often times just meant they got sunk quicker!
As I look at this Beta rules, I am not seeing much that makes escorts less of a points sink than in previous editions. Am I missing something?
I think it was rather faction specific. As a Prussian player, my escorts and frigates were some bread and butter units for me. Other factions, they were somewhat more disposable. However, overall the design of DW 1-2.5 favored small ship types, which is probably one of the reasons the fleet comp rules put a limit on them.
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So, if the Italians took the wrong idea from Lissa then all their ships must HAVE rams!
Always possible, but then there is a lot of effective ramming in DW 2.5. Some ships are very good at it in fact.
I think it was rather faction specific. As a Prussian player, my escorts and frigates were some bread and butter units for me. Other factions, they were somewhat more disposable. However, overall the design of DW 1-2.5 favoured small ship types, which is probably one of the reasons the fleet comp rules put a limit on them.
Oh indeed. Some faction's escorts are very useful, such as the Korsors for the Danish (A decent gun plus a one-shot mine dispenser), or the Fury for the Black Wolf (With its ability to deliver Devastating Munitions as a group)
Escorts are meant as a level of extra protection and firepower for the vessel they are escorting, is my take on the class, and DW 2.0 and higher really expresses that well; Destroyers are a more flexible option which is as it should be.
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Well, then perhaps the impression I got from earlier editions about escorts was wrong?
I am happy to hear that.
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Well, then perhaps the impression I got from earlier editions about escorts was wrong?
I am happy to hear that.
I got the impression that you found them to be glass canons, which is certainly accurate. There's a definite art to using small ships in DW, where you need position them and activate them in order to get off an Alpha strike before they are obliterated. It is easy for one full-strength frigate squadron to destroy (or nearly destroy) an enemy frigate squadron in one activation, between shooting and boarding. So, getting that alpha strike off is huge. Also, as you say, they are quite vulnerable to attack from larger models.
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I got the impression that you found them to be glass canons, which is certainly accurate. There's a definite art to using small ships in DW, where you need to position them and activate them in order to get off an Alpha strike before they are obliterated
That is very true. Even with escorts that have definite tasks, like those with sub-hunting abilities (Like the Directed Fire- Concussion Charges that some escorts have), you have to get them into play to utilize that skill effectively.
But that's where Small Target, Elusive Target and suchlike MARs come in as protection; Escorts are fragile, sure, but they aren't simply disposable single-shot deals..
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That is very true. Even with escorts that have definite tasks, like those with sub-hunting abilities (Like the Directed Fire- Concussion Charges that some escorts have), you have to get them into play to utilize that skill effectively.
But that's where Small Target, Elusive Target and suchlike MARs come in as protection; Escorts are fragile, sure, but they aren't simply disposable single-shot deals..
In my experience, though, they essentially are "single-shot deals." Those MARs really only help with letting smalls survive long enough at long range to allow them to close and get off their RB2 or RB1 attack. Once they are that close, those MARs aren't enough to save them. The usual sequence in my experience is that a squadron of 5 frigates swoops in and does major damage to an enemy small or medium squadron. The enemy retaliates, and you have maybe one or two of your frigates left. Those 1 or 2 ships can still be a threat, of course, but the bulk of the squadron's potential damage has already been dealt by that point. Plus, we are talking about game turn 3 or 4 by this point, and not many DW games last more than 5 turns anyway!
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The usual sequence in my experience is that a squadron of 5 frigates swoops in and does major damage to an enemy small or medium squadron. The enemy retaliates, and you have maybe one or two of your frigates left. Those 1 or 2 ships can still be a threat, of course, but the bulk of the squadron's potential damage has already been dealt by that point. Plus, we are talking about game turn 3 or 4 by this point, and not many DW games last more than 5 turns anyway!
My experience really does differ; My own escorts and smalls do work like that on most occasion, with the notable exceptions of the BW Fury frigates which seem to live blessed lives; My opposition tends to close in with escorts and small craft, decimate anything up to Cruiser mass, and then leave virtually unscathed to wreck more havoc on another squadron. That Close Quarters restriction for main weapons has been a thorn in my large ship's side for almost all the time I've played DW ( One reason I now have a Kingdom of Denmark fleet)
Interesting how playing styles and actions are different between people.
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New previews have gone up on FB for two Canadian units: A battlecruiser, and a submersible aircraft carrier (!).
I have to say, I think these look pretty nice 8)
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/138853662_1122299421550570_5949109233698743283_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=JNxrOqz8q_cAX82iYos&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=99b3b1a9dd26363027299df2f4f37ff6&oe=602543D6)
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/139210715_1122299424883903_396630426604101101_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TOfZZqD6wVoAX9lA7S-&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=73309dbe5b690f1819ff078606d4e19a&oe=60260D0E)
Territorially, the Dominion of Canada has proven to be the most significant to the Crown. In the years since the end of the Prussian Wars, Canada has grown in importance as an industrial power in its own right, a bulwark against Union northern expansion and strategically located to push against both the awakened Empire and the scheming Commonwealth.
Preferring to operate its naval forces in a more flexible and rapidly deployed nature to the other Dominions, the Canadians focus on speed and ruggedness. Their prows are reinforced to deal with the ice floes that are a common shipping hazard for their deployments.
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New previews have gone up on FB for two Canadian units: A battlecruiser, and a submersible aircraft carrier (!).
I have to say, I think these look pretty nice 8)
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/138853662_1122299421550570_5949109233698743283_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=JNxrOqz8q_cAX82iYos&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=99b3b1a9dd26363027299df2f4f37ff6&oe=602543D6)
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/139210715_1122299424883903_396630426604101101_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TOfZZqD6wVoAX9lA7S-&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=73309dbe5b690f1819ff078606d4e19a&oe=60260D0E)
Territorially, the Dominion of Canada has proven to be the most significant to the Crown. In the years since the end of the Prussian Wars, Canada has grown in importance as an industrial power in its own right, a bulwark against Union northern expansion and strategically located to push against both the awakened Empire and the scheming Commonwealth.
Preferring to operate its naval forces in a more flexible and rapidly deployed nature to the other Dominions, the Canadians focus on speed and ruggedness. Their prows are reinforced to deal with the ice floes that are a common shipping hazard for their deployments.
The submarine is a definite improvement on the ugly as sin 'nautilus' version of the vengeance, though with the way the 3.0 rules stand I can't see how sub carrier is as exciting as Spartan version though easier to stat up.
With the Canucks I have mixed feelings. I like the response to the Spartan models, but the unnecessary gunk still makes the designs far too busy for me and those mini turrets seem out of place. However, the design borrows a lot from a couple of fan designs and Warcradle make no mention of that heritage which is a big dick move in my book. The command deck borrows heavily from Joseph Hillen/Merlin's designs on thingiverse and elsewhere, and of course the Canadian plate was originated by Dayve Walshe. Considering how hard Warcradle has been coming down on fans and fan projects, to borrow from fan designs and not recognise that fact is pretty disgusting to me.
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I wonder why their designs seem so squat?
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That sub-carrier looks the business!
Not sure if it fits in thematically with other Crown units, but it is super cool looking!
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I presume that's just the house style, trying to meld the less over the top designs of Spartan with the more stylised WWX designs which are a lot squatter and exaggerated.
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I presume that's just the house style, trying to meld the less over the top designs of Spartan with the more stylised WWX designs which are a lot squatter and exaggerated.
I don't really mind that they are more complicated designs but by shortening them they make them seem unrealistic. I just can't imagine these ships housing a crew at all
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As always we fall back on Stuart's quote from when they took over.
"I think it's important to acknowledge that visually the game is going to embrace and evolve the more outlandish concepts from second edition Dystopian Wars rather than keeping it in the ‘could happen' vibe of the first edition. So more iceberg ships and robot dragons and less WWI German battleships. Our design team, while respectful of influences and inspiration found in the real world, are much more stylistically led rather than continuing the pseudo-historical feel of what went on before. For some that means the designs are going to be going in a direction that is not for them. The ships of the Dystopian Age are not ships you would honestly expect to find in real life (with or without Stirginium), but as playing pieces in a war game we want to make sure they are visually distinctive and exciting. In that regard Dystopian Wars will have much more in common with the design philosophies behind sci-fi and fantasy games like Warmachine than historical games like Flames of War."
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That sub-carrier looks the business!
Not sure if it fits in thematically with other Crown units, but it is super cool looking!
My thoughts about the submarines we've seen for the Crown as well: They could be useful for my League of Crimson, though :)
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As always we fall back on Stuart's quote from when we took over.
I totally get that but the 'out-there' design elements don't require ships that are unrealistically sized.
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With the Canucks I have mixed feelings. I like the response to the Spartan models, but the unnecessary gunk still makes the designs far too busy for me and those mini turrets seem out of place. However, the design borrows a lot from a couple of fan designs and Warcradle make no mention of that heritage which is a big dick move in my book. The command deck borrows heavily from Joseph Hillen/Merlin's designs on thingiverse and elsewhere, and of course the Canadian plate was originated by Dayve Walshe. Considering how hard Warcradle has been coming down on fans and fan projects, to borrow from fan designs and not recognise that fact is pretty disgusting to me.
WRT to the similarities with Merlin's desings...there is definitely a similarity in the basic shapes, but TBH that shape isn't all that complex I have no problem believing that WC arrived at it independently. And while the Canadian design idea was originally created by Dayve, the overall design of the Candadian fleet was presumably acquired as part of the overall Dystopian Wars IP. So, I don't see any wrongs from WC in this area. In fact, I seem to recall Dayve himself gave the design his blessing on FB ;). I feel like I'm often taking on the role of "WC Apologist" on here, but at the same time I can't abide automatcally assigning the worst possible motives to a company that is, after all, putting in a lot of hard work and money to bring back a game that we all love. Just my $0.02!
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With the Canucks I have mixed feelings. I like the response to the Spartan models, but the unnecessary gunk still makes the designs far too busy for me and those mini turrets seem out of place. However, the design borrows a lot from a couple of fan designs and Warcradle make no mention of that heritage which is a big dick move in my book. The command deck borrows heavily from Joseph Hillen/Merlin's designs on thingiverse and elsewhere, and of course the Canadian plate was originated by Dayve Walshe. Considering how hard Warcradle has been coming down on fans and fan projects, to borrow from fan designs and not recognise that fact is pretty disgusting to me.
WRT to the similarities with Merlin's desings...there is definitely a similarity in the basic shapes, but TBH that shape isn't all that complex I have no problem believing that WC arrived at it independently. And while the Canadian design idea was originally created by Dayve, the overall design of the Candadian fleet was presumably acquired as part of the overall Dystopian Wars IP. So, I don't see any wrongs from WC in this area. In fact, I seem to recall Dayve himself gave the design his blessing on FB ;). I feel like I'm often taking on the role of "WC Apologist" on here, but at the same time I can't abide automatcally assigning the worst possible motives to a company that is, after all, putting in a lot of hard work and money to bring back a game that we all love. Just my $0.02!
Its not about motive, more just a sense of recognition. I remember something similar happening with Disney Star Wars and the use of fan designs. Acknowledging stuff, or at least doing some work to do so just helps build fan connection, rather the constant battle WC seems to be fighting to expunge publicly referencing their inspiration.
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Perhaps, but at the same time I don't know if it is really possible for WC to go back and acknowledge every little design cue they take from Spartan's old models. I also don't see a lot of use in castigating them for something that seems like it was coincidental to me (ie, the bridge design for the Canadian BC). Can't we all just be happy that they've shown some previews for some neat-looking ships and leave it at that (rhetorical question)?
Anyway, that's enough about that. Let's get back on topic!
The Hunt for the Prometheus sets are starting to arrive. This is the first video un-boxing that I've run across:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtkoP1bw5nc
I just got the shipping notification from DHL that my copy should be arriving this Thursday! Super excited to get my hands on it. I'll put up some pics, maybe even a video, when I get mine.
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These were just posted up on FB: 2 new carrier previews, for the Commonwealth and Enlightened:
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/139949290_1125185241261988_4386281880672308118_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=SEJ7KQE6yoYAX9xXLx3&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&tp=6&oh=32c542ae903248855f5260e5febef7f9&oe=602A9DAA)
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The Covenant carrier is just the existing Kepler Class with extra steps and those manned Lippisch rip-offs ( Rippisch? ).
The Russian Commonwealth also pretty much the same as the Spartan ones in shape and arrangement.
I could live with that, but the fine detail on some of these according to some people are somewhat lacking. And it's been answered with remarks like "the detail has to be exaggerated like with human figures, to make it fun to paint, and in any event accuracy and scale are irrelevant in wargames miniatures" and "if you find yourself obsessing over the realism of wargames figures you should have a word with the nurses about your medication" (The former from FB, the other from a forum post - Which was taken down pretty sharpish, I admit.)
That's all very well, however I feel it's not going to be useful for bringing in historical players in the future; I am damn certain it didn't in the past with later variants of WH40K.
Still, I wasn't planning on getting everything Warcradle produces; My fleets are going to get some backup in the future, since there are some nice designs it seems, like many of the Starter Box ones - but I'm happy enough with them (And 2.5) that I don't feel like any Kool-Aid.
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Obviously Ruckdog you are correct that Warcradle doesn't need to acknowledge Spartan cues but it's nice when they acknowledge Spartan existed. But that's a personal beef over a lot of their choices that remind me of the expunging of dead pharaohs to make the present pharaoh look mightier. With Joseph, we know that warcradle were aware of the models because they attempted a cease and desist on him.
I could live with that, but the fine detail on some of these according to some people are somewhat lacking. And it's been answered with remarks like "the detail has to be exaggerated like with human figures, to make it fun to paint, and in any event accuracy and scale are irrelevant in wargames miniatures" and "if you find yourself obsessing over the realism of wargames figures you should have a word with the nurses about your medication" (The former from FB, the other from a forum post - Which was taken down pretty sharpish, I admit.)
I wish that the team at Warcradle was better at PR. There is nothing wrong about discussing this stuff, even if you understand a steampunk game won't be entirely accurate, but the constant attacks on people's mental health for being critical is very unpleasant, which is probably one of the reasons I end up hyper critical because that kind of stuff reduces my benefit of the doubt.
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Obviously Ruckdog you are correct that Warcradle doesn't need to acknowledge Spartan cues but it's nice when they acknowledge Spartan existed. But that's a personal beef over a lot of their choices that remind me of the expunging of dead pharaohs to make the present pharaoh look mightier. With Joseph, we know that warcradle were aware of the models because they attempted a cease and desist on him.
I could live with that, but the fine detail on some of these according to some people are somewhat lacking. And it's been answered with remarks like "the detail has to be exaggerated like with human figures, to make it fun to paint, and in any event accuracy and scale are irrelevant in wargames miniatures" and "if you find yourself obsessing over the realism of wargames figures you should have a word with the nurses about your medication" (The former from FB, the other from a forum post - Which was taken down pretty sharpish, I admit.)
I wish that the team at Warcradle was better at PR. There is nothing wrong about discussing this stuff, even if you understand a steampunk game won't be entirely accurate, but the constant attacks on people's mental health for being critical is very unpleasant, which is probably one of the reasons I end up hyper critical because that kind of stuff reduces my benefit of the doubt.
That's fair, and I'm not going to defend anything WC has said via their various social media. That's there business, and I'm sure they can take care of that without my help. My only goal is try to keep the discussion here on MBS as civil as humanly possible and focused on the games and miniatures to the extent that I can ;)
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Just put up a bunch of unboxing pictures on the blog!
http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2021/01/24/dystopian-wars-3-0-unboxing/
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Hopefully, they follow firelock and stick a pack of those tokens in every box.
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How are the target dice? They look kinda cheap
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How are the target dice? They look kinda cheap
That was my first thought as well! I think its the pearl-white plastic they used for them; it gives them a chintzy look. They actually aren't bad at all. They feel pretty nice in my hand TBH, about on par with standard Chessex dice.
I talk about this and more in the YouTube video I posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuaMKr0yIII
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Thank you for the side by side comparisons in the video for the ships and especially the SRS. Seeing them next to each other is really helpful on visualizing the direction they are going for on table presence.
I talk about this and more in the YouTube video I posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuaMKr0yIII
Looking forward to assembled ships!
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I've got a new video up, this time discussing the two questions about DW 3.0 I've seen asked most often; Where does my Faction Fit In, and Are My Old Models Still Useable?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwFICU8HO0I
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Very informative. Thanks
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I've got another video up, looking at the size and shape differences between the new and old Covenant models:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Dd6jeJTHw
Very informative. Thanks
No problem! I appreciate the feedback.
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I've got another video up, looking at the size and shape differences between the new and old Covenant models:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Dd6jeJTHw
Well I didn't stay for the stats but I watched the rest of it :-)
Quite handy. Haven't seen anything similar and it made me a bit happier about my preorder
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Great job again on the comparisons, and I didn't know I needed scatters until I saw them!
I've got another video up, looking at the size and shape differences between the new and old Covenant models:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Dd6jeJTHw
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I've been working on a new series of videos, which I'm calling the Captain's Academy. I'm taking a detailed look at the rules mechanics for the new edition. The first two episodes are up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh8hPaGBvLs&list=PLqvRKhd1zRilyMuti8WGlKxxIBRCc5nCf
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Very handy videos. Looking forward to the Shooting video
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Videos 3 and 4 are now up!
Video 3 (Shooting): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4EOiZcSRSE
Video 4 (Assaults): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCE3-abieo
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Firstly well done Ruckdog for the videos. I am still unconvinced I wont choose to play the new rules unless there's a big growth in the new game here locally ( Which there is not as yet, however we only have a few starter boxes in the FLGS round here ) nevertheless, this has been a clear walkthrough of the system that is clear and excellent.
Secondly, I'm starting to warm to the new Russian/Commowealth models, but otherwise not. The Latin league seem nice ( Especially as Hellenic Kingdom in 2.5 ) but I still feel the Spartan models had more style and a better grasp of how ships work, which the new Prussians are the most extreme example of no idea.