Man Battlestations Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ruckdog on December 13, 2017, 06:49:11 pm
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It's almost time for the Last Jedi premerie! I've been watching a couple of non-spoiler reviews on YouTube since the embargo lifted, and it sounds like it's going to be great.
I figured I'd start a thread for last-minute hype as well as our own impressions once we start seeing it. If you are going to post spoilers, make sure to use the Spoiler tag!!!
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I rate it in the top 3 of SW films, ESB still#1, and I'll need a few more tries to decide if I like it better or worse than ROGUE ONE.
[spoiler]
Good:
-- Mark Hamill and everything Luke
-- Kylo and Rey making their own fate, screw this legacy crap...
-- Kylo and Rey vs Snoke
-- Kylo and Rey vs Imperial Guard
-- Rey being an actual nobody (unless reversed later)
-- Rose Tico and Finn - more nobodies making good!
-- Laura Dern's badassery
-- Carrie Fisher's Leia pwning death .. if only we had more
-- Luke's showdown with Kylo, every level of it
-- Rey stealing the Jedi texts and hiding them on the Falcon
Bad:
-- Those Rebel Bombers - stupidest WWII analog in space ever conceived, with Bombs dropping straight down instead of being launched and using mag-grabbers. I can't even brign myself to buy the X-Wing models.
-- The whole Casino planet stuff. Felt like a waste of time.
Ugly:
-- Benicio Del Toro's character just didn't work
-- Conflict between Poe and Adm Holdo seemd horribly contrived
-- Still no answers on how the First Order is remotely funded, how the galaxy's economy works now with previous Government destroyed, etc
-- Something was off with Yoda's CGI or whatever
-- Porgs
[/spoiler]
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I was actually just thinking about starting a thread about Episode VIII.
My $0.02:
[spoiler]
The good:
-armored Imperial walkers
-Rey training with the lightsaber on Luke's island
-Ren's pure, unadulterated hatred of Luke Skywalker (Adam Driver really acted that scene very well)
The bad:
-humor that was really out of place. It was so forced that it actually pulled me out of the story--too distracting. Disney doesn't need to rely on cheap laughs to sell a Star Wars movie--they'll make $500 million on curiosity alone. I found the whole opening scene between Dameron and Hux to be particularly galling. Also, they REALLY missed an opportunity for Luke and Rey to bond over both of them being from backwater "nowhere" planets, but instead they tried to make it funny.
-Captain Phasma: what a waste of potential. I was looking forward to seeing her character development in this movie; a storm trooper captain wearing polished silver armor and a red cape??! That's awesome! Then they gave her three lines of dialogue and she got blown up. Again, what a waste.
-Admiral Holdo's final maneuver: on its own, taken in a vacuum (no pun intended), it was pretty cool. But then it begs the question: if it's that easy to destroy an imperial starship, why not just build a bunch of really hard bullets the size of an X-Wing's hull, put small hyperdrives on them, and shoot them at the enemy? Why build starships at all?
-what were they trying to do on the salt planet before Luke showed up? Dazzle the Empire with their impressive flying of outdated, (seemingly) unarmed mono-ski speeders? Other than being visually stunning (and it was, especially the scenes from overhead), there seemed to be no real point to what they were doing other than chewing up screen time.
-the field trip to Canto Bight, or whatever the name was of that planet. Seems that the only reason for that entire screenwriting detour was to set up the fact that there are other force-sensitive kids in the galaxy--which we actually saw at the very end when that kid summons the broom over to himself (and would have understood just as easily without that 30-minute sideshow in the middle of everything else).
-the bombers: I second what Dakkar said above. That scene was TERRIBLE, and it took FOREVER.
-the Porgs. I don't know, maybe the Ewoks were as bad and I've "grandfathered" them in due to my nostalgia, but they at least fought against the Imperials alongside the Rebellion (if only on their home planet). Seemed like a thinly-disguised merch advertisement (how many Porgs will be under Christmas trees this year?), but at least they weren't as annoying as Jar Jar. However, I'll go back to what I said above--you don't need gimmicks to sell Star Wars. The title sells itself.
The ugly:
-The future of the franchise. For me, this was the worst Star Wars movie since Episode III. I would rank it barely above the prequel trilogy. There was some really good acting (especially from Adam Driver and Daisey Ridley), and a few really stand-out moments (Luke demanding to know where Han was, Ren's near maniacal breakdown over Skywalker, the lightsaber fight in the throne room), but it wasn't enough to save the movie. And I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Star Wars fan, have been all my life. There was a good movie in this plotline--somewhere--but all of the other stuff that I listed above, for me, obscured it.
I do plan to see it again over the holidays, and I'll update this if my opinions change.
[/spoiler]
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I've heard from multiple people that their opinion improved with multiple viewings (whereas the opposite happened with me and TFA).
I think the themes are what makes this one great, even if some execution (humor, sequence design) is uneven.
[spoiler]
In particular, the big FU's to Lucas' tired old "Chosen One" narrative; making it about devoted people and the real politics, not some Elites conflict that the galaxy is just a pawn in. And heck, it basically calls out most every stupidity in TFA (Kylo's Vader wannabe status for instance), and it disposes of Snoke without a second thought. "who cares who he is - he was lame anyways..."
Even "The Holdo maneuver" gives the finger to Starkiller base - if you want to kill big stuff, all you need is a hyperdrive and a chunk of mass. They may make some excuse that no one just throws away Heavy Cruisers like that, but heck, if it kills 1000 times its tonnage, you bet they do! And undergrad Physics is enough to tell us you don't need that sort of mass to kill even a moon or planet.
Maybe that sort of Hyperdrive aspect is hard to aim... she either needed to hit them as she accelerates to hyperspace, or is dropping out of it.
You're dead on that it makes ships obsolete. This is the central conceit of space operas. WE know it should all be like Honor Harrington, but if it doesn't look like lasers and broadsides and carriers and dogfights it loses popular appeal.
"Leave the past behind, and make a new start". Indeed.
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A good article on why older fans may be having a tough time. Spoiler filled of course.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-killed-my-childhood-and-thats-exactly-wh-1821429836
[spoiler]
I probably had similar feelings when the Prequels ruined Vader. And then he was reborn to The Cool in comics and Rogue One.
TLJ just completed a journey to the new for me. Like when Rey and Kylo fought the Imperial Guardsmen, that was ALL that mattered suddenly, how good and cool that was.
Star Wars is dead. Long Live Star Wars!
[/spoiler]
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Another article, more to the funny (also spoilers)
https://kotaku.com/lets-talk-about-the-weirdest-and-best-scene-in-the-la-1821376910
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I got to see it last night! Overall, I liked it quite a bit. I thought it was better than TFA, to be honest. Detailed thoughts:
[spoiler]
-I didn't mind the humorous aspects of the movie; a lot of the interaction with Rey and Luke on the island was pretty funny to me. When Luke chucked the lightsaber over his shoulder, I admit I laughed at the non sequitur.
-The Porgs didn't bother me; they weren't as bad as Ewoks, I think, because they weren't shown as doing anything improbable like defeating (and possibly eating) a bunch of Storm Troopers. They were a little cutsey window dressing, that all. The part with Chewy trying to eat one was a great bit!
-Looking back, it definitely seems like the trailers were made to be intentionally misleading, as the movie definitely went in a different direction then we were led to expect by the trailers, such as with the whole Rey-Kylo meeting.
@Landlubber: Definitely agree with you and Dakkar that the WWII bombers in space didn't make a lot of sense. That being said, I found far fewer head-hurty things in this movie than I did in TFA.
@Dakkar: Oddly, the whole casino planet bit didn't bother me as much as it seems to most folks. I can see how it didn't contribute a ton to the overall movie, but I did feel like it had some good Rose/Finn/BB-8 moments and helped give a little breathing room from the "ticking clock" part of the story with the fleeing Rebel fleet.
@Dakkar: The "Holdo Maneuver" thing...hmmm. On one hand, that was an awesome scene, with great effects and the like. On the other, it does raise a lot of questions about just how fleet combat works in the SW universe! If you can make effective "light speed" rams, then why bother with big ships at all?
--On that note, I also like Hux complaining about "What is all this for if we can't destroy a few fleeting rebel ships?!" Good question! I don't know why, but it seems the First ORder is much more concerned with losses to its fighters than the Empire was. For example, before the Rebels even started their escape, the First Order dreadnought did not launch a CAP until after Poe started blowing the crap out of its defenses. That part didn't make sense even to the CO of the Dreadnought!
[/spoiler]
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Well....
[spoiler]
My issue is not with the whole "passing the torch" thing. I get that, I accept that, and we all knew that was coming given how freakin' long it took for Episode VII to come out (in real-world years, not SW universe years, although they seem pretty close). I'm all about adding to the rich Star Wars universe with new stories, heroes, villains, ships, planets, species, etc. And I have no problem suspending my disbelief where science fiction stories (movies, TV shows, books, games) are concerned.
My issue was with the execution of the movie. For all the reasons I listed above.
And again, I think they missed some golden opportunities to add to the richness of Star Wars. Snoke, for example. "Who cares who he is, he's lame anyway". I disagree--maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but we never found out. If we're hailing Kylo Ren and Rey as the new "torch carriers" (and I'm totally OK with that), then I'd like to know how Kylo Ren came to be who he is. Leia herself said in TFA that it was Snoke who stole Ren away from them. Why? How? What was the bridge between the "incident" between Luke and Ren (then Ben Solo) that we learned of in TLJ and Ren falling in with Snoke? What was Snoke's connection to the Force? Where was he during the Empire years (because he looked REALLY old)? It seems like they set a lot of those questions up in TFA, and I expected to start seeing some answers in TLJ and whatever Episode IX will be called. Killing Snoke off in TLJ to me seems like either laziness, or lack of creativity. Why introduce him at all if you're just going to kill him off halfway through the second movie with no explanation of who he is or how he came to be what he was?
I'm not defending Snoke as a character; I'm just using that once instance as an example of my disappointment in the movie. Same with Captain Phasma, although I've already covered that.
Ultimately none of this is that big of a deal. I'll continue to play X-Wing and Star Wars Battlefront, and build SW models, and collect cool Star Wars posters, etc, etc, etc. I just think this could have been a better movie, and I think it puts Episode IX on shaky ground.
[/spoiler]
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I think it puts Episode IX on shaky ground.
The fact they've re-selected JJ Abrams to direct (aka Mr. Starkiller Base aka Mr. "What Speed of Light") is what puts Ep IX on shaky ground. :-)
[spoiler]
There's no win scenario on Snoke. Either he's a somehow alive Palpatine, or mutilated Jar Jar, or any of a dozen fan theories; or he's a nobody we've never heard of before but has been there "all along". Any option there is terrible, and everyone's just as unhappy. He's not even a "Darth" to start with, so the Sith connection is completely absent.
Overall, he's like a piece of backstory better covered in novels or comics. Grand Moff Tarkin if you will ... though maybe that's more a Hux analogy.
If you dislike as a matter of taste and perception, that's fine. Everything's not for everyone.
The haters I'm *really* peeved at right now are the Part 2 of the Rey haters from TFA. I.e. - the crowd who thinks a girl can't be a hero. Even if she's 100x less whiny than a young Luke Skywalker ;-)
[/spoiler]
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Two more interesting perspective articles:
1st on the Anti-TLJ petition:
https://www.avclub.com/an-anti-the-last-jedi-petition-is-quickly-becoming-a-sa-1821469978
2nd nicely covers a lot of my feelings and love for the film:
https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-going-to-go-the-way-you-think-the-last-jed-1821472840
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For those that are huge Star Wars fans that were very disappointed, here’s my general summary for why:
This was a film set in the Star Wars setting, but wasn’t a Star Wars film (which is about theme)
That isn’t how the character Luke Skywalker would behave
This breaks the laws of physics (bombs in space, arcing lasers) and the entire combat premise of Star Wars (they just invented Death Star destroying Hyperspace Missiles)
Also, as films go, there were a ton of plot holes, and little in the way of character development. At least Rae wasn’t the penultimate Marry Sue this time, which basically ruined The Force Awakens.
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This was a film set in the Star Wars setting, but wasn’t a Star Wars film (which is about theme)
You mean "A Chosen One" narrative, or it doesn't count? Where the Force chooses Noble Bloodlines only, and peasants are just there to serve one side or the other?
That isn’t how the character Luke Skywalker would behave
Mark Hamill disagrees. And clearly, he made the same mistakes with students that Obi Wan did (and then some). perhaps it had to do with that fear he never fully addressed. Luke was always complaining about what he wanted versus what IS.
"But I was going to Tosche Station..."
"That's not true, that's impossible!"
I'd agree they should have had more flashback time to convey what *really* happened that Luke lost not just Ben, but the other Knights of Ren. It's harder to process Luke's guilt without that.
But just because its not happily ever after for a character we all care about doesn't mean its not him.
There's a FB animation that puts new spin on this too, I'll try to link to it later when at home.
This breaks the laws of physics (bombs in space, arcing lasers) and the entire combat premise of Star Wars (they just invented Death Star destroying Hyperspace Missiles)
As if the series hasn't been rife with this before?
At least Rae wasn’t the penultimate Marry Sue this time, which basically ruined The Force Awakens.
That's what ruined TFA for you, not the atrociousness of the entire Starkiller Base sequence and concept?
And Luke being no less a Mary Sue in 1977 doesn't count either? ;-)
"How could a farm-boy with no training outfly Darth Vader and destroy the Death Star in one shot!"
;-)
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I finally saw it.
[spoiler] I wanted mythic cycle and fairy tales of good vs. evil. Instead, I got contempt for wanting that and "modern" irony. In essence, as part of Star Wars the message was a bit Nihillistic and that nothing really matters. You will accomplish nothing. Even in Episode IX how can tehy come back from that? I will be thinking about the fact that it doesn't matter what Rey, Poe, Fin, etc. do as it will ultimately be meaningless. Benicio Del Toro's character summed it up perfectly.
I guess if that is what modern audiences want? I don't in my Star Wars. [/spoiler]
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You mean "A Chosen One" narrative, or it doesn't count? Where the Force chooses Noble Bloodlines only, and peasants are just there to serve one side or the other?
Nope. The Good vs Evil narrative, where what you choose to do with “power” is all that really matters.
Mark Hamill disagrees. .... Luke was always complaining about what he wanted versus what IS.
Huh, everything I’ve seen from Mark Hamill indicates he did not agree with this direction, but he’s a professional actor, so he delivered a good performance. And Luke didn’t seem very whiny at the end of “Return of the Jedi”.
As if the series hasn't been rife with this before?
Not sure what you’re referring to here off-hand, but two of those broke my suspension of disbelief, and the last literally breaks EVERY space battle ever.
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One more log for the fire
http://nerdsthatgeek.com/blogs/the-death-of-the-fanboy
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Been meaning to post here after seeing it a second time.
[spoiler]
So, I've softened my stance a bit. I went a couple weeks in between viewings, and maybe my subconscious worked on how I felt about the movie and smoothed some things over (you were right, Dakkar). I still like it less than The Force Awakens, but I don't dislike it as much as I did.
-I think the dialogue between Dameron and Hux, immediately followed by that terrible space-bomber scene, got the movie off on the wrong foot for me. That attempt at humor was terrible, and that bomber scene was horrible.
-I still think most of the attempts at humor were heavy-handed. They were, however, easy to ignore the second time around. It reminded me of a Marvel movie, which is usually OK because the humor usually fits in Marvel movies. But Disney now owns both franchises, so I'm a little worried about bleed over.
-Regarding physics--yes, Star Wars breaks physics. It always has. The Death Star trench run wouldn't have been nearly as cool if real physics had been involved. It's just a fact of life--Lucas planned the dogfights in Episode IV from watching WW2 gun camera footage. And if you can suspend your disbelief, there's nothing wrong with that. Which means--and I came to this conclusion in a discussion with a friend of mine (I think it was Zorper)--that my issue with the "Holdo manuever" is that it is WAY too close to "real physics", and thus incongruous with the space maneuvering and combat we've seen in previous Star Wars movies/shows/games/etc. Yes, that is pretty much what would happen (given my limited understanding of general physics--I'm not trying to nitpick here) if you were able to get that much mass to accelerate that quickly through another object. The true "Star Wars" version of that, I think, would have involved Holdo crashing her ship nose-first into the larger ship and one or both of them exploding spectacularly or breaking apart and crashing into...something.
-Other than some of the attempted humor, I had no issue with how Luke acted. I do like that they sent him off into the sunset (literally) with him sacrificing himself for his friends and family. And that was a beautiful scene at the end, with him disappearing off the rock.
-I'm still not happy about the lack of explanation of Snoke, but I'm over it. And I'm hoping that's not the last we see of Phasma. If Boba Fett could survive falling into the Sarlacc Pit, I think we'll see Phasma again.
So, there it is. I was a little harsh in my first "review", and I've had some time to reconsider some things. Not a truly great movie, but not a terrible one either. And let's face it, none of the Star Wars movies have been truly "great" (except maybe Empire, and possible Rogue One), but they have mostly all been entertaining.
Ultimately, though, I do wish they hadn't waited so long to make sequels. If I had my druthers, they would have made Episodes 7-9 based on the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy by Timothy Zahn, which was as good if not better a story than the original three movies.
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And Dakkar, that was a great article.
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If I had my druthers, they would have made Episodes 7-9 based on the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy by Timothy Zahn, which was as good if not better a story than the original three movies.
That story is still very possible to tell (with recasting of course). Thrawn is very much in current canon, and beyond awesome on REBELS. Moreso than I even recall liking him in the Zahn trilogy...
I also recommend seeking out the recent D6 Generation Lost Chapter Podcast, discussing the TLJ.
[spoiler]They point out that while TFA was a reskin of Ep IV, T:J is EMPIRE *backwards* with a blend of RotJ too. Perhaps its symbolically backwards because its deconstructing the original stuff - that'd be my theory. [/spoiler]
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I enjoyed it for what it is (a movie), and I don't normally pick movies apart for kinda hokey stuff (the bombers?). But I didn't at all like how Ackbar got killed off with no acknowledgement (it's AKBAR, dammit!) and the Leia/Force-Popsicle flying through space? Hated that.
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Leia/Force-Popsicle flying through space? Hated that.
What, Leia can't have Force powers in a moment of dire need?
And technically, she didn't fly, she reeled herself in from zero-G into the ship's gravity by pulling against the ship.
If Force-Users could easily fly, then the Emperor wouldn't have died the way he did.
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I enjoyed it for what it is (a movie), and I don't normally pick movies apart for kinda hokey stuff (the bombers?). But I didn't at all like how Ackbar got killed off with no acknowledgement (it's AKBAR, dammit!) and the Leia/Force-Popsicle flying through space? Hated that.
Regarding Admiral Ackbar, I too wish that he had some kind of better send off (I'm rather partial to the fishy fleet commander), but when you really get down to it he was (at best) a minor character, at least as far as the movies go. He had what, maybe 5 minutes total screen time between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens? Most of what we know about his character has come from books and the like, and I suspect that a majority of the people going to see The Last Jedi either wouldn't remember who he was without a trip to Wookipedia, or else would remember but wouldn't care.
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Did anyone notice that Ackbar/Leia's/Holdo's ship was called the RADDUS, as in the Admiral from ROGUE ONE ?
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Did anyone notice that Ackbar/Leia's/Holdo's ship was called the RADDUS, as in the Admiral from ROGUE ONE ?
I didn't pick up on that until I read some reviews and discussion after watching the movie ;D
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I enjoyed it for what it is (a movie), and I don't normally pick movies apart for kinda hokey stuff (the bombers?). But I didn't at all like how Ackbar got killed off with no acknowledgement (it's AKBAR, dammit!) and the Leia/Force-Popsicle flying through space? Hated that.
Regarding Admiral Ackbar, I too wish that he had some kind of better send off (I'm rather partial to the fishy fleet commander), but when you really get down to it he was (at best) a minor character, at least as far as the movies go. He had what, maybe 5 minutes total screen time between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens? Most of what we know about his character has come from books and the like, and I suspect that a majority of the people going to see The Last Jedi either wouldn't remember who he was without a trip to Wookipedia, or else would remember but wouldn't care.
Minor character, yes. But quite popular I think, especially for those of us who saw Return of the Jedi in the theaters. You gotta love Mon Calamari cruiser designs. And I've often though he was in command of one of my Aquan fleets! I can't resist sharing a few pics of one of my favorite Admirals ever...
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...
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Never too many Ackbar memes ...
We need a fanservice edit where he pulls himself out of space using the Force, instead of Leia :-)
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Never too many Ackbar memes ...
We need a fanservice edit where he pulls himself out of space using the Force, instead of Leia :-)
AGREED!!!
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What I hated most about the movie was it basically shoved in my face that NOTHING MATTERS!
The battle between good(?) and evil(?) never ends and it can not be won. Sure, that is true; but can't I have a victor for Good and a Good Guy last in a fictional universe?
The whole movie just seemed hyper-20teens to me.