Author Topic: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....  (Read 2242 times)

Ulric the Grey

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Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« on: February 19, 2016, 11:25:19 am »
WARNING! Trigger WARNING FOR THOSE WITH SENSITIVE FEELINGS OR ARE FANBOYS(Ie Spartan can do no wrong)!

Seriously if you have a counter to what I have said here, please do post it. These are just some feelings/beliefs I have after a few dozen games of FSA in my current meta. 


Lets look at Racial Abilities* of Dindrenzi and RSN compared to that of say Terrans and Aquans....

Dindrenzi - Rail Guns, Gun Racks, and Ablative Armor
RSN- Cloak(on one ship type), Shields(on capitals only and at cruiser levels), Beams( free beams for all), and Railgun or torps

Terrans- Any Arc Torps, Nukes, Shields
Aquans- Any arc Torps ( or having them in multiple arcs cant remember),Evasive(most of their ships have this not all granted) and Energy Transfer of at least one on all cruiser + size ships.

As an RSN and Dindrenzi player, I have some issues with the terran and Aquan fleet. Firstly, they get all the toys of shields, good torps, and the mars that make those torps dangerous. Now I typically have a higher DR and CR, but with no Shields, I have quickly seen that as a liability rather then as a bonus.

Last game I played, I watched as my opponent consistantly rolled high enough on his damage rolls to mitigate all my DR and CR bonuses. I have seen my Cloaked ships in the RSN get blown apart by Torps, so much for cloak helping right? That makes me more vulnerable to torps the next activation that my opponent does.

Now some people say RSN and Dindrenzi win the range game, this is not the case if your opponent is using terrain to his or her advantage. My Direct weapons fire is reduced, while your torps are not. Sure I can bring in Escort frigates, but once again I have seen them just get demolished after all the Dindrenzi escorts are not so much escorts as they are mini frigates. The Buckler class escort has one PD....Only one How the hell is it an escort frigate? So you have to use the RSN ones who have 3 PD each.`

Now RSN Spook type Cruisers are useless against the terrans, despite this fleet being designed to kill terrans, due to the fact that you can't out torp a terran fleet and that ship type is built with spook torps. Hell The marshells out torp them with their spook(which was originally only Zenian League mar for torps) nuke torps, come on! Also with dual defenses of Shields and Point defense fire, as a RSN and Dindrenzi player you need those Direct weapons. I have seen whole weapons fire die the entire round due to Shields and Shield TAC cards. While the return fire knocks down whole ships.

I write this to point out that at least one ship type, maybe like a Battle cruiser or similair ship type, needs something to by pass that ship Shield and torp advantage. When playing against Terrans And especially Aquans, I have noticed that not being able to land solid hits due to Shield advantages(seeing regularly the 2-3 shields activating on 3+, sometimes up to 5 ships depending on what your shooting at) and on the aquan side( which is just their racial fleet ability and I am cool with it for the most part. Except that they have two racial abilities, energy transfer and evasive) I can get mushroom stamped on the forehead by them in the return fire. The issue here is that only gravity type weapons can by pass the shields, and only one race has them...who are they allied with...thats right aquans and terrans..... The way this game is set up amazes me at times.

A Good deal of the problem comes from, as a player pointed out, that torps do not reduce in strength due to damage, also for terrans and others it is an any arc weapon. While for RSN, Dindrenzi, and others its a purely front arc weapon that shares its arc with our direct fire weapons.   This means by turn 3 or 4 Dindrenzi and RSN have to angle to get the shots in, while a terran player can just fire away with his torps in any arc and hit. Your main weapon is still effective, while 2/3rds of mine is gone.

Also Gun Racks suck... why? You can't have them fire on two seperate arcs of fire, you pick one, port or starboard sides. Also most dindrenzi ships have no other weapons that can join fire as the gun racks act as one weapon system in two arcs, but can only fire in one each round. This would be fine if their damage values where high enough, but they are not. So unlike the aquans I can't boost fire to make it more dangerous.

Before you fan boys of the terrans get upset, yes I know my Rail guns are stupid, but as pointed out, its front arc only direct fire. Chris Routinely hides his cruisers on full stop behind some Astroids, just so they can fire all game with little worry. Also RSN has some pretty nasty Beam weapons I will give you that. But I have to close within Knife fighting range and without shields and having to drop cloak, my fragile ships crumble up real quick.

Also Ablative armor is more of a weakness, if it was just a DR of 4 and a CR of 8, all the time, I would agree that my ships are tough to avoid Crits most of the time, but once my Hull points go to half strength, my CR goes to 6, which leaves me with the same stats as a Terran cruiser who most likely has two shields. So the point of fluff saying my Dindrenzi ships being tough is just wrong, as I have the same DR as a terran cruiser but no shields.... and my Higher CR only lasts for half my hull points before going away... and oh your shields last until the last HP is gone. Also I can not improve my DR, while at 5 points a Cruiser can increase his shields to 2.... Balanced?


Now I am not writing this to claim that game is unwinable for the Zenian league. Nope, I am writing this to point out some unbalanced things that I see within the game. Now any one point can be mitigated by Rolling hot the game and an opponent just rolling cold. But for a Dindrenzi player and RSN player I have realized that I need to roll well and hope that my opponent rolls crap, because when it comes downs to it, sound strategy played by both players is seen often enough in my games. So it all comes down to how you roll, as you know that your opponent makes very few mistakes. 

 

Andrewchristlieb

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 11:40:26 pm »
Well... Shields suck... A lot.  ;) They effectivly increase a ship's DR/CR by .8 per shield. Where you run into issues is with a wild string of 6's, but I see them fail far more often then not.

As for Torpedoes just get a carrier with some interceptors, poof instant torpedo repellant.

The gunracks do suck, but that's entirely because the range advantage and firepower of the railguns means you can't really have a lot of side arc guns too. Once again enter the carrier, and her friends the gunships ;). Take some corvettes too for cover, they're wicked little boogers.

Now Aquans... Yeah they got all the toys and then some...  ::)
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Ruckdog

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 11:47:23 pm »
Really, Ryjak is the guy you need to talk to...his Dindrenzi/RSN list administered a smack-down on my Terrans a few weeks back! You can see the batrep here:

http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2016/02/03/firestorm-armada-terrans-vs-dindrenzi/

Of course, it didn't help that I couldn't get a decent shield roll to save my life!

To echo Andrew, Interceptors are what you need if you are fearing Torp spam. Ryjak was able to completely shut my torpedo threat down by keeping his fleet under the PD umbrella afforded by the  interceptors based on his BB and CV. He actually built that list to counter Aquans, I believe, and not Terrans, but it was still effective. The other thing I could think to recommend is looking at shunting in a squadron or two so they can dig out castled-up Terran units. Terran cruisers are actually reasonably squishy once you get decent firepower to bear on them.


Ulric the Grey

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2016, 01:39:39 am »
Ok...Yes intercepters work well against the Torp issue. How many ships do I have that can launch them? None outside of carriers and other capitals. They can't be everywhere at once, can only be 6 inches from the launching ship, and only have a 6 inch intercept zone... I can not cover enough bases, sure they help, but don't solve the issue. If I keep my fleet in a 6 inch radius from the Carrier, to get a protection from that carrier then I open my self up to nukes that go off hitting more then they would have.

Secondly. Shields are .8...well that still puts you at .8 higher then my Cruisers who are DR4 and CR 8 at full health. Only at dr4 and cr 6 at half health and lower. Also you still gain the Double defensive(ie Shields and PD) rolls that I do not gain with my Dindrenzi and RSN fleets. I am trying to point out that their is an imbalance here. Yes Ruck, I believe I covered the bell curve of hot and cold die rolling, but on average you can save more while I just take the shots. As pointed out, the shots I take on the chin because in the fluff I am supposed to be tougher, in game I have glass ships that break easily. As you pointed out about terran cruisers being squishy....Dindrenzi ships have the same stat block without shields.  Also I know some terran ships get that mar...weapon shielding I think which does help them maintain firepower, while once again Dindrenzi take it on the chin here.

As for Gunships...they are tough and nice ( got three of them). First game I used them in they all got CRited by Stephans fleet in the same turn they came in and lost half of their fire power, and yes I chalk it up to stephans die rolling, also this damage was done by torps. Also note they came in as reserves Flanking most of his fleet, but that doesnt matter apparently.

Also I loose enough firepower from the railguns with each hit....You dont lose a point of Torps. After 2 points of damage this drops my 8 die at 24 inches down to 6 die at 24 inches. Needing at least 4 hits to do anything, then you factor in shields and my 8 to 6 die in a 13-24 inch range is nothing, especially when your only going to get one turn at that range anyway. That range is the optimal range for kinetics.

As for shunting in units to dig out units using the terrain for cover, well I have seen shunting in ships blow up(fail to show up, shunt into the middle of planet do to shitty roll and opponent places it,etc.) in the face of player so many times I don't feel safe with my typical die rolls to try it.

I think the jest of my issue is that despite being 'tough' my ships are not. Fine don't give me shields, but at least give the Dindrenzi weapon shielding, so I can hit hard with my Rail gun till the dying breath. At the current state of the game I feel that it is still in its beta phase after version one 'alpha' was worked on. I enjoy it, just like I enjoyed BFG, and yes it had its list of problems as well. I am just wondering what else could be done in this game to level it out a bit more, so that we see more variety of ships. Right now I have seen more people choosing to play terrans and aquans because of the rules that they get in the game. No one really plays Directorite, because of lack of shields, lack of heavy hitting platforms. I see some people playing or thinking of playing the Rethoza because of the cloak and stealth issue. I rarely see people playing Soryans or Dindrenzi fleets.... Why? Because of the fact that soryans have short range weapons and are slow... and the dindrenzi have no defensive abilities at all and break under fire, at least the cruiser level ships.

Ruckdog

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 09:50:05 pm »
Hey now...I'm not saying that there aren't any imbalances in the game (to be honest, I don't play it enough to have my own opinion on that). All I'm saying is that based on the last game of FSA I played, there are some decent counters to some of the advantages you feel the Terrans have over your fleet (again, due to lack of play, I can't say anything about Aquans).

Ok...Yes intercepters work well against the Torp issue. How many ships do I have that can launch them? None outside of carriers and other capitals. They can't be everywhere at once, can only be 6 inches from the launching ship, and only have a 6 inch intercept zone... I can not cover enough bases, sure they help, but don't solve the issue. If I keep my fleet in a 6 inch radius from the Carrier, to get a protection from that carrier then I open my self up to nukes that go off hitting more then they would have.

Well, it depends on how much you reserve/shunt in. Ryjak was able to easily keep The forces he had on the board (a battleships with escorts, a cruiser squadron, and a carrier) under his SRS PD umbrella. Granted, this does make nuclear weapons more dangerous, however the only long-range nuclear weapons the Terrans have are torps. The direct fire nuclear stuff is much harder to come by, and generally only starts at RB3...at which point the Terrans are also within your Kinetic range ;).

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Secondly. Shields are .8...well that still puts you at .8 higher then my Cruisers who are DR4 and CR 8 at full health. Only at dr4 and cr 6 at half health and lower. Also you still gain the Double defensive(ie Shields and PD) rolls that I do not gain with my Dindrenzi and RSN fleets. I am trying to point out that their is an imbalance here. Yes Ruck, I believe I covered the bell curve of hot and cold die rolling, but on average you can save more while I just take the shots. As pointed out, the shots I take on the chin because in the fluff I am supposed to be tougher, in game I have glass ships that break easily. As you pointed out about terran cruisers being squishy....Dindrenzi ships have the same stat block without shields.  Also I know some terran ships get that mar...weapon shielding I think which does help them maintain firepower, while once again Dindrenzi take it on the chin here.

Well, remember that the .8 is an average value. That would nominally put a Terran cruiser at DR 4.8 and CR 6.8 (assuming I don't take the extra shield on it). The thing is, now that I have to roll for that protection, it ends up making my defenses less reliable. I've had games with really poor shield rolls, others where I've rolled 6's all over the place! The nice thing about the Dindrenzi is that their extra CR makes Terran players work even harder to get that nuke to go off ;).

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As for Gunships...they are tough and nice ( got three of them). First game I used them in they all got CRited by Stephans fleet in the same turn they came in and lost half of their fire power, and yes I chalk it up to stephans die rolling, also this damage was done by torps. Also note they came in as reserves Flanking most of his fleet, but that doesnt matter apparently.

Also I loose enough firepower from the railguns with each hit....You dont lose a point of Torps. After 2 points of damage this drops my 8 die at 24 inches down to 6 die at 24 inches. Needing at least 4 hits to do anything, then you factor in shields and my 8 to 6 die in a 13-24 inch range is nothing, especially when your only going to get one turn at that range anyway. That range is the optimal range for kinetics.

Sounds like a rough arrival! Torps being an indirect weapon system and not getting affected by damage is handy, I will admit. One thing I have found though is that as my ships take damage, they also tend to be getting closer to the enemy. This in turn drops my available torp dice, thanks to the inverse nature of Terran torps. Still, though, as a Terran player I love to see isolated Tier 2 and Tier 3 squadrons...they are attractive torpedo targets. Not sure what else you could have done, though it will be interesting to see how the light carriers coming with the Taskforce sets will change that up some by giving players a way to put what I assume will be a Tier 2 SRS platform in play.

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As for shunting in units to dig out units using the terrain for cover, well I have seen shunting in ships blow up(fail to show up, shunt into the middle of planet do to shitty roll and opponent places it,etc.) in the face of player so many times I don't feel safe with my typical die rolls to try it.

Fair enough, though you only have something like a 10% of something bad happening to the shunting squadron (and the position shifting one you mention only comes up 5-6% of the time). I too was a bit concerned about shunting things in, thanks to my experiences with Deep Striking in 40k! This isn't nearly so bad. Not getting your reserves in a timely manner is a risk, true, but that goes for flanking as well. TACs and BL adjustment of the reserve roll can help, but I definitely agree that not getting reserves on the board until turn 3 or 4 (or even later) is a significant risk.

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I think the jest of my issue is that despite being 'tough' my ships are not. Fine don't give me shields, but at least give the Dindrenzi weapon shielding, so I can hit hard with my Rail gun till the dying breath. At the current state of the game I feel that it is still in its beta phase after version one 'alpha' was worked on. I enjoy it, just like I enjoyed BFG, and yes it had its list of problems as well. I am just wondering what else could be done in this game to level it out a bit more, so that we see more variety of ships. Right now I have seen more people choosing to play terrans and aquans because of the rules that they get in the game. No one really plays Directorite, because of lack of shields, lack of heavy hitting platforms. I see some people playing or thinking of playing the Rethoza because of the cloak and stealth issue. I rarely see people playing Soryans or Dindrenzi fleets.... Why? Because of the fact that soryans have short range weapons and are slow... and the dindrenzi have no defensive abilities at all and break under fire, at least the cruiser level ships.

I actually sort of like the idea of giving Dindrenzi Tier 1 and 2 squadrons access to Weapons Shielding as an upgrade/hardpoint. It would certainly help mitigate losing HP thanks to their standard DR. Another idea would be to just give them +1 DR, though that might be a more radical change. I also wouldn't be opposed to giving Dindrenzi Tier 1 and 2 ships access to shields as an upgrade, perhaps at a point lower than their Terran counterparts. It seems a bit hard to believe that the Dindrenzi haven't figured out how to get some kind of shielding onto at least their larger stuff at this point in the war!

Your description of the local meta is interesting...based on some of the things I've read and heard, it does not seem to be representative of other metas at least as far as the faction distribution goes. I'm curious to see what fleets show up at Adepticon

Quickdraw

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2016, 12:13:08 am »
One thing to mention Ulric is that your all to appropriately hated Terran battlecruiser squadron is nearly the cost of a dreadnaught and they fall apart like paper mache if they move out of cover. Not to mention the radical battle log swing if they get eaten up. It's a nasty unit, but if you come and get them they are toast.

The RSN are a weird animal. I have some ideas of how I personally would play them. So let's focus on the Dindrenzi.
While weapon shielding is definitely something I could see them having as an upgrade shields would be a little too much in my opinion. I have a hard enough time amassing enough dice to give them a crit... (Not to mention they have all those surplus raw materials to just bolt on some extra 4 feet of armor plate). My battleships at close range in the rear arc don't even have enough dice to reliably crit a Dindrenzi battleship.
Interceptors are the best thing you. Can do to shut down a Terran list built around torps. If the torpedoes don't work well then a Terran torp list is almost always a disaster.

Ryjak

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2016, 04:22:14 am »
Let me see if I can help.

First, it sounds like you're playing someone that really understands how to play Terrans well.  They're hiding behind LOS Impeding/Blocking Terrain, lobbing Nukes at you.  I've dreamed of facing someone like this to test out my theories on how to dig them out.

Based on your comments, focusing on both faction's Cruisers, it's time to face facts.  The Dindrenzi Cruisers are some of the softest targets in the game, with DR 4 and nothing else.  They also have average PD3.  This makes them extremely vulnerable to being plinked to death, something Terrans are good at and Aquans excel at doing.  My solution is simple; don't start them on the table.  Always try to reserve them, as this increases the odds of placing them where they want to be: full health, open LOS, and 24" from their prey.

Also, their Torpedoes, Gunracks, and Mines are all secondary weapons, which you should basically assume will do nothing all game.  Sure, sometimes you'll sneak in a point of damage with the Torps, or you'll have something wander into 8"-16" side arcs, but don't count on using any of it.  Instead, do everything possible to line up two perfect shots back-to-back.

But let's address your main problem; Terrans bunkering down behind terrain with Cruisers and Frigates.

First, understand your primary tactical goal:completely obliterating one model in the squadron.  Once either squadron looses a ship, their firepower takes significant hit, to the point where their effectiveness is almost laughable.  However, this can seem impossible to do.

Here's my theory.  Let's assume you have a Cruiser squadron vs Cruiser Squadron Scenario.  The Dindrenzi need to flush out the Terrans, who are hiding at Full Stop with Sectored Shielding and probably some other defenses.

First, you need to get within 24" ASAP.  If you can achieve this position without damage, fantastic, but don't count on it.  Assuming there's no realistic way to line up an open shot, and no better target (there probably is a better target), then line up your rail cannons on one Cruiser and go to Full Stop as well.

Basically, you now have two 8AD shots you're dumping on this one Cruiser every turn.  Here are the odds of doing damage:

Railguns

No damage:  55-60%
1 HP Damage (plink): 20%
2 HP Crit: 20%

It's practically 0% with the Torps, even with 1HP remaining, so basically ignore them, but you can get lucky.

Those odds are pretty terrible, but here is the enemy perspective:

Direct Weapons
No damage: 75%
1 HP Plink: 20%
2 HP Crit: 5%

Torpedos vs Full Health (6 PD)
No damage: ~50%
1 HP Plink: ~25-30%
2 Hp Crit: ~20-25%

The edge is definately with the Terrans, but not by that much.  If you can place even a 1-Wing Token nearby to help PD, it will decrease the damage odds by ~5%; a full 6 PD generally shuts this down completely; Interceptors really shut it down.  This is why PD augmentation is so important

Ulric the Grey

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2016, 11:26:16 am »
I believe my main issue is that despite, in the fluff, of having heavily armored ships, they are as you pointed out the most squishy by plink to death, at least for the first two hits on a cruiser. Then they are easy to crit.

Yes torps are nasty, and yes I hate them, but its the terran stick and its a nice thing to have. A Weapon system that is your own, or at least something that your faction excells at using. Just like Rails are our stick and we are good at using them. The issue I have is the fact that Dindrenzi are too squishy and their weapon system looses hitting strength very fast compared to the terrans. Perhaps chris should come on and either tell me I am smoking crack or that perhaps I have a viable point. As a terran player who plays the crap out of them, he would have a better insight to how Dindrenzi play against him.

Yes you can deal with the torps from the terrans by using PD SRS tokens, but you have to play tight to a Capital and that limits your mobility quite alot. I have seen Chris use that against a player before, by flanking the Dindrenzi and so at turn 4 or 5 the player has to turn and show his butt to one  of the flanking forces if he wants to fire his rails. Once again good sound Strategy for Chris, one of the reasons I dread playing him at times in cons.

Ask dale or one of the other firestorm players, I normally always focus target ships in a squadron, ignoring the others in favor or reducing their ship numbers. This is especially important if they have 4 ships in cruiser squadron. I also tend to ignore the bigger capitals in favor of reducing the enemy activations a turn, thus giving me a slight edge in that direction. So with this in mind, I have no problems with people playing to the strengths of their faction. It just seems to me that as a zenian/Dindrenzi/RSN player, I need to have as little of terran on the table. Need to win those initiative tests and have the right target priority in order to take the field.

Doing it this way would be boring though.... thats why I think in average game settings you need to be able to do something to level the playing field a bit.  Hence my idea about Weapon shielding. Fine I am still squishy, but at least my weapon strength does not lower as drastically as before for each hit and my ships ability to do damage with their rails (which are front arc only) is sustainable. I dont know, I feel that while Dindrenzi are still able to win, its not tactics that will win the day for you in the end, its die rolls, yours and your opponents more so then other space games.

Quickdraw

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 02:02:38 pm »
I believe my main issue is that despite, in the fluff, of having heavily armored ships, they are as you pointed out the most squishy by plink to death, at least for the first two hits on a cruiser. Then they are easy to crit.

Yes torps are nasty, and yes I hate them, but its the terran stick and its a nice thing to have. A Weapon system that is your own, or at least something that your faction excells at using. Just like Rails are our stick and we are good at using them. The issue I have is the fact that Dindrenzi are too squishy and their weapon system looses hitting strength very fast compared to the terrans. Perhaps chris should come on and either tell me I am smoking crack or that perhaps I have a viable point. As a terran player who plays the crap out of them, he would have a better insight to how Dindrenzi play against him.

Yes you can deal with the torps from the terrans by using PD SRS tokens, but you have to play tight to a Capital and that limits your mobility quite alot. I have seen Chris use that against a player before, by flanking the Dindrenzi and so at turn 4 or 5 the player has to turn and show his butt to one  of the flanking forces if he wants to fire his rails. Once again good sound Strategy for Chris, one of the reasons I dread playing him at times in cons.

I think the idea that the Dindrenzi cruisers are squishy is definitely a good point. They do get "plinked to death." But, part of that is also target priority.
From a tactical perspective I have a hard enough time amassing the dice pools necessary to reliably destroy a Dindrenzi battleship. Destroyers have protection at long range, and small size ships are hard enough to hit with small target and an unheard of CR of 6...
That means my best possible target is the cruisers. So they'll naturally go down first.

I think the problem here is that no ship is invincible, and it shouldn't be. This is a game where things are designed to explode spectacularly. I wouldn't say the game is unbalanced (except for those damn Tarakian grav weapons) but ship to ship it's more about tactical decision making then anything else. In the open your 16 dice at 24" beats my 14 dice at 16". My CR 6 means it's fairly likely I'll take a crit or even two where your CR 8 means I will be hard pressed to cause a critical. So I have to make a tactical decision and hide. Where my superior torpedoes are unaffected. So a Dindrenzi tactical decision would mean coming in where firing lanes are unobstructed.

Ultimately there are a couple take-aways from this conversation. Cruisers are the first targets, and they need to deploy to maximize open fire lanes... Shunt or flank entry is starting to look pretty nice.
 
If you aren't happy with the performance of the cruisers then leave them at home. I rarely field Terran cruisers anymore, they're too vulnerable in my opinion.
Torpedoes are inherently an unreliable weapon (they get shot down) and shields are inherently an unreliable defense ("you mean my damage rating is based on a 4+ die roll!?!").
Our local meta is just catching on to the interceptor secret, so up until now my nuclear torpedo lists were pretty handy.

I know that's a whole lot of unconnected thoughts, but I'm trying to give a handful of different examples/thoughts to open up wider avenues of thought.
I feel like your focus is on what isn't working, when there are a a lot of options to try and find something that is working ***Back to idea above to leave cruisers at home. My cruisers were not working for me, so after plenty of trial and error I found a solution...leave them at home.

Ryjak

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 09:03:19 pm »
First, a quick note on Ablative Armor:

"If a model with the Ablative Plating MAR is reduced to less than HALF its starting Hull Points, its Critical Rating is reduced by two."

So, Cruisers become CR 6 when they take 3HP of damage, not 2HP.  That should make a slight difference.

Second, I've learned to never start my Cruisers on the table; they're glass cannons.  If you want Mediums to start on the table, proxy them as Heavy Cruisers.  DR 5, 6HP, 4PD each, stronger Torpedos, scary Gunracks.  Very respectable.

Finally, if the Dindrenzi Navy has a motto, it's this:

Strike Hard, Strike Fast, GTFO!

If you don't have a sizable lead by the end of Turn 3, you probably won't win.  Time to shunt out for the draw.

Dakkar

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 02:29:58 pm »
John, we should do a Relthoza vs your Dindrenzi match, where I can mimic the Terran tactics. And then try some shunt-reserves options.

As to revisions overall, I've long though the Dinz plan jane Cruisers need to start at 5/7 DR/CR.
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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 09:15:56 am »
I think a DR of 5 for the Drenzi cruisers would be fair...CR7 is a hard sell for me, as you will now take it up to nearly Battleship levels with the Ablative armor. That might be a bit much ;)

One of the other things I think it is worth pointing out...yes, Dindrenzi cruisers are Glass Cannons, but that is not unique to Dindrenzi cruisers. Pretty much any medium model in both FSA and DW (and presumably US, though I haven't played that game and can't say for sure) tend to die very quickly. It just seems to be an endemic part of the Spartan game engine that most medium models have limited durability. There are some that are more robust than others; we've talked here about Terran and Aquan cruisers, but also look to the Federated States cruisers in DW (which have +1 DR and access to shields). However, even the more robust mediums suffer in terms of survivability compared to large models and are much easier to hit than smalls.

Dakkar

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 02:44:23 pm »
Another route for Dindrenzi cruiser usage (or anyone's cruisers if cheap enough) is in quantity. Individually, they might go down fast. But if I bring NINE cruisers, each squadron throwing that 16 die kinetic at 24"; that takes some time to work through while I throw some pounding shots.
Mixing in one RSN Spook Squadron isn't bad either. For example:

Praetorian Battleship   BB   200
+3 Wings      20
- +2 AP      5
- Launch Tubes      5
- Assault Blitz / Deck Crews / Split Fire      20
      
3x RSN Spook Cruisers      210      
3x Secutor Cruisers   CC   180
3x Secutor Cruisers   CC   180
      
3x Hammer Frigates   FF   90
3x Hammer Frigates   FF   90
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Ryjak

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Re: Thoughts on Fleet Design.....
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 07:36:23 pm »
 That is a solid list; I would adjust the praetorian quite a bit though. My current floss fee is to always bring five interceptors with it.

 If you want DR 5 on your cruisers, upgrade to the heavy cruisers.